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MDPS ENGI could be a possible meta change if ...


naru
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MDPS ENGI 

Hey guys i wanted to suggest a little class rework on engineer. The class is nice as PDPS in its human form but the mecha form is just good to farm stuff and not really nice in pvp since mages are just way better in dealing aoe dmg. I tried MDPS after jordan showed me Deraks youtube video, where he ran as MDPS engi with a +2 gun DD and i was pretty impressed. His dmg against monsters were good for someone with just a +2 weapon he reached around 10-20k + triple hit. I tried that in this server too and i deal that much on monsters in dungeon with my +2 102% gold lv 60 gun too BUT it doesnt work that well in pvp. In pvp ppl obviously run around in teamfights mages run back and when they get low or any dps in general runs ofc back to their heals when they get low thats how pvp work, if you get low switch to shield and run away. My problem with MDPS engi was if i target someone and want to use my point and click aoes on the enemy AND this enemy runs in that moment back, the cast of my engi breaks up and he runs after the target and since in PVP everyone keeps moving around its very difficult to spam blackexplosive. As mage you dont have to target someone you just spam snow storm and if you have enough cast speed you press all 20 seconds Fusion reaction and deal tons of dmg which means you dont run after someone if that person runs away. As mage you can just spam the aoe where ever you want and exactly that would be awesome for MDPS engi too. I know alot of you guys want the classic experience but i dont think reworking on classes or making them better wont kill the "classic experience" you get in this server.

My buff/rework suggestions are

  1. Give the iron superman buff more duration than 30 sec cuz the cooldown even with glyph is 1:10 min which means you can only be abit usefull all 40 seconds.
  2. Make black explosive and Oilbomb like the Bard aoe/Mage aoe/Cleric aoe setable so you dont run after your targets and interrupt your cast.
  3. Maybe make out of the triple hit (if oilbomb is on the target) a double hit so its not that overpowerd to deal the whole time triple hit aoe dmg.
  4. And maybe give super iron man a tiny matk buff at the same time since the matk of guns are to low. I know the dmg against monsters is fine but player are way more tanky than monsters so maybe giving iron man a matk buff with +X matk depending on the level would fix the problem with the gun matk abit.

Here is the link to the youtube vid so you can see that it actually deals dmg and mention that its only a +2 gun :

 

I think having more options in pvp than just a party with 4 or 3 mages , 1 mdps cleric ,2 heal clerics ,1 templar , 1 illu , 1 bard and maybe a MA would make the game more exiting. Even if we are here on a classic server doesnt mean we have to do everything exactly like aeria did you guys can do it better i guess. Anyways tell me your thoughts about that suggestion and if youre a random watch pls the vid before saying that mdps engi cant deal dmg (i know jordan saw the vid cuz he sent it to me few weeks ago).

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Thank god, there are other players thinking that the MDPS Engineer desperately needs a rework.
Back in the days, when i played Normal Class TW actively on the awakened server, i really tried making a MPDS Engineer viable... it failed miserably... barely dealing half as much dmg as an equally well equipped mage even with the double dmg from Iron Super Man buff.
I agree with some of your opinions, but i have to correct something you wrote there;
The multi dmg from having oilbomb on the enemy is not a triple hit. It is a double Hit with ~130% dmg as you can see here: (And yes, the oilbomb setup does NOT increase the base dmg. It only adds the doublehit effect)
JjBQ6zw.png
it might be actually an idea to make this skill a triplehit instead of a 130% doublehit. To make the oilbomb setup worth it. otherwise instead of oilbomb with low dmg because you were going for mdps, you're probably better off with just spamming your mdps skills.

Now to the ideas to make this build at least somewhat viable:

2 hours ago, naru said:

Give the iron superman buff more duration than 30 sec cuz the cooldown even with glyph is 1:10 min which means you can only be abit usefull all 40 seconds.

Yes. the Buff is absolute necessary to deal at least a little bit of damage. Without it, the damage is just laughable. Either increase the active timespan or decrease the cooldown. (Even with the Glyph the downtime is too big, just as naru said)
 

2 hours ago, naru said:

Make black explosive and Oilbomb like the Bard aoe/Mage aoe/Cleric aoe setable so you dont run after your targets and interrupt your cast

Haven't thought about this one, its a good idea. (Can we do the same with the mdps skill from hunter?)

 

Some ideas i'd like to add:

1. Add an Matk bonus to the armor
could be similar to the Mecha on Awakened Server. The one thing the MDPS Engi is lacking is some actual MATK. And since Guns have so low matk, its hard to deal some juicy damage numbers. The base Damage from the skills simply does not compensate the lack of matk (ofc you can use Matk Proc trophies, tho i still feel its too weak even with, and you'd basically be reliant on the Buff AND Trophyprocs to deal damage)

2. Make the Mdps skills instacast (or at least Black Explosives)
instead of boosting the damage of the engineer, give it more mobility by removing the cast time on the skills.
Tho i fear that this would make the engineer too strong in combination with any of the other ideas. it would just be Mecha Ares2.0 in Classic, and we don't want that...

 

please note that adding all of the ideas would make the class too broken - i just wanted to state some ideas to make the engineer with this unique skillset a valid option to build for.

Overall i'd really love to some actually use in this unique class that could be played as dps, mdps or even hybrid. Not solely for running...

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The mdps light sets (with mcrit dmg) are totally useless until lv 75 cap because there is no luminary and none will play bard and spam earthshock as mdps. Thats why i was confused why jordan removed the Luminary, instead of releasing him as starter class. All mdps mcrit dmg light sets lost their purpose cuz no class can use them properly. There is no reason to use bard as mdps and engi doesnt work in pvp unfortunaly which is kinda sad. Giving few classes abit love would be nice. In awaken server we could use all classes except Rakshasa for something and everything there had its purpose you know. Well demon tamer is trash too in pvp cuz the pet is one shot unlike the kage pet of demon summoner, anyways it would be really nice to give engi abit love so we can actually use the light mage set and have more varations for team compositions. 

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28 minutes ago, naru said:

The mdps light sets (with mcrit dmg) are totally useless until lv 75 cap because there is no luminary and none will play bard and spam earthshock as mdps. Thats why i was confused why jordan removed the Luminary, instead of releasing him as starter class. All mdps mcrit dmg light sets lost their purpose cuz no class can use them properly. There is no reason to use bard as mdps and engi doesnt work in pvp unfortunaly which is kinda sad. Giving few classes abit love would be nice. In awaken server we could use all classes except Rakshasa for something and everything there had its purpose you know. Well demon tamer is trash too in pvp cuz the pet is one shot unlike the kage pet of demon summoner, anyways it would be really nice to give engi abit love so we can actually use the light mage set and have more varations for team compositions. 

Because at level 60 a full geared and good luminary can one shot a party easily. Luminary isn't even balanced at 75 cap. You also seemed to be blind sided again that everything is useless just because you don't know how to play it. Bard wouldn't be spamming earth shock really would it? What about Halfkin bards and the Vocal Bombing with Glyph?

Realistically Luminary would struggle with a MDMG set as you'd have to invest too much in cast speed procs. Not to mention its a Classic Server...

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24 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Because at level 60 a full geared and good luminary can one shot a party easily. Luminary isn't even balanced at 75 cap. You also seemed to be blind sided again that everything is useless just because you don't know how to play it. Bard wouldn't be spamming earth shock really would it? What about Halfkin bards and the Vocal Bombing with Glyph?

Realistically Luminary would struggle with a MDMG set as you'd have to invest too much in cast speed procs. Not to mention its a Classic Server...

that was an example jordan pls relax. I was talking about mcrit dmg sets being useless cuz there is not really a class which can use them and yes ik halfkin is a good dps with blue classes but only HALFKIN what about the other races without a op cd reset racial skill ? Anyways this suggestion wasnt about the luminary its about engi and i just added that mcrit dmg light sets are useless cuz there is no class using them. 

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idk why he shoots so hard about me being confused why luminary isnt available at lv 1 on this server. I just mentioned that i was confused i didnt say release the class now. And the mcrit dmg sets are useless because there is no class which can properly use them. If engineer  would get a little rework more ppl would use mcrit dmg sets. I have insta cast on my engineer after using one or two aoes the only thing which makes it shitty to play are the points i already wrote in my first post here. The vocalbomb on bard has to much cooldown and doesnt deal enough dmg with earthshock to make it relevant. The only light mcrit dmg set using class rn COULD be engineer.

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I'm just not sure why we need to rework an entire class on a Classic server. It's not like MDPS engineer is completely useless its just a lot harder to make it work in PvP and inefficient to do so. Doesn't mean its useless and doesn't mean every single class has to be PvP viable.

I mean look at the awaken server, as stated "Demon Tamer" is useless. However, its one of the most noob friendly classes for PvE and is very useful in things like trials when you don't have good enough gear to deal good damage to bosses. Similar things can be said about Engineer. You have a class that can make easy work of most dungeons in the game simply by kiting the mob with healing gears. It also has it's use in PvP, granted its not MDPS but does that honestly matter.

I think even if we where going to start reworking classes which we likely wouldn't. Why would we target a class like Engieer that already has good use in both PvE and PvP when theres classes like Shaman is practically unplayable in all sitations and the only arguement that could be made is it "can" heal more than a Cleric about about 20%. There is other classes in the same boat as this too that if you where to make a tier list are in the "Don't bother with these classes" tier vs engineer which is likely in the mid to top tiers in various aspects.

~~

As for the topic buffing super iron man is a bad idea, basically just saying lets make bulwalk from Awaken Engineer on classic.

Making it a place AoE likely doesn't change anything, might benefit you and your playstyle but will equally hurt someone else and their placestyle as I always find that target AoE and place AoE doesn't really change anything and always just a matter of preference (Only benefit of place AoE is being able to hit people who are maybe invisible but you know where they are).

Tiny M-ATK buff or a big M-ATK buff wouldn't matter to much. Unless you're giving a buff thats like 12~20k or more it won't make a difference realistically. You might kill an extra 2~3 people who may have survived on low HP but in the grand scheme of things nothing will change. Ditto this point for the M-ATK to the armor suggestion.

Making the skills instant cast would be hell for PvE. You'd basically be making Engineer the only class worth doing anything on as realistically your pull times could be 15~30 seconds which is the majority of the cooldown and then the damage from the Super Iron Man would wipe them before it runs out. Making it just like Mecha Ares again...

~~

I've spent a lot of time balancing this game and although not everyone agrees with my choice I think I know balancing pretty well at this point to be able to tell you how to correctly balance it.

Right now the Engineer is in a very good state if you build it right. You can PvP on it but it will fall into the same category as MDPS Mimic did. Yes its gated very much so by its Super Iron Man cooldown. A couple of ideas you could look at to tackle this would always result in the following condition. You'd always need to nerf/remove Super Iron Man in order to buff the other areas. Because the underlying problem is of how reliant it is on a single buff the class is.

Then once you've done the above you can use various methods to increase the viabillity such as increasing the skill M-ATK values to offset the difference with a Gun vs a staff. Improve the multi hit from oil bomb or even just putting more skill damage to similar the damage Super Iron Man gave.

There is no need to be throwing the kitchen sink at a class realistically. The above changes either don't make a difference or overpower it. You also have to factor in gear, like the Double Damage gun at level 70 and when people are running double -fire in the same party as someone running double - All Elemental.

~~

12 minutes ago, naru said:

idk why he shoots so hard about me being confused why luminary isnt available at lv 1 on this server. I just mentioned that i was confused i didnt say release the class now. And the mcrit dmg sets are useless because there is no class which can properly use them. If engineer  would get a little rework more ppl would use mcrit dmg sets. I have insta cast on my engineer after using one or two aoes the only thing which makes it shitty to play are the points i already wrote in my first post here. The vocalbomb on bard has to much cooldown and doesnt deal enough dmg with earthshock to make it relevant. The only light mcrit dmg set using class rn COULD be engineer.

You mentioned my name and spoke of me like I did something stupid based on something that wasn't even relevant and just came across as mis-informative and naive. Hammers are in the game and has an Awaken version but the only class that can really use it is Sage so based on your logic we must rework Templar to use a hammer because thats the class that was suppose to use it! See what I mean?

Think before you post, don't be throwing random information at a post to try and justify your ideas.

Like look at your first post, it's informative and converys your point very well. It has good arguements and has your opinions and a well thought out manner.

Then look at the post I replied to... It's passive-aggressive, you're throwing random and quite honestly pointless information and it can just be boiled down to he's raging about something again...

I shoot hard because honestly you do this a lot. Sometimes you give good posts with good information and good points and sometimes you just post nonsense.

I hope you read this carefully and understand what I'm trying to say. I don't have anything against you.

 

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Jordan i think that you think that i was passive aggresive because of my last post. Lets be real just because i wrote that i was confused about your choice not releasing luminary means for you that i try to shoot against you? Idk how you read my posts and interpret what im writing thats  honestly not my problem. Passive aggresive were my posts about this server being the biggest rng server in the eden history yes but not me being confused about the luminary thing. If you read stuff and inerpret to much into it like this person is raging rn thats your problem i wasnt raging or something like that when i wrote that. And about the hammer thing yes theyre useless until lv 70 and same with heal grimoire. All i can say ive tried engi as mdps in pvp and the biggest problem was the target aoe because you just run after ppl and your cast gets interrupted even if you have insta cast which is easy to get with highland stuff. And making the skills insta cast wasnt my suggestion so dont write like i wanted that. I think you read my name here and your personal feelings against me after my post with the rng stuff just overtake everytime and make you think im shooting against you. 

 

ANYWAYS

 

I think that my suggestion would not make the class over powerd because the main thing it would change are the aoes being setable like the mage snow storm the actual gameplay of engi would be the same you use oilbomb and then black explosive. Only thing which would not happen anymore is running after ppl when they run back in their backline while you cast a aoe. Iron superman has to much cooldown even with the glyph you need to wait 40 seconds to be usefull again. And about the matk buff you already wrote that wouldnt have much impact then i believe you i guess? And why not making more classes pvp viable ? No Engi is trash in pvp none literally none would say i preffer a engi in my party than (Mage,Ma,MDPS Cleric, illu, Heal cleric, support bard,templar) and that other classes are even more trash then engi is not a secret like you said in your answer. There are many other classes which are just trash because they get outdamaged by other classes. Idk why would you not try to make classes work better in pvp and pve. There are so many classes which are nice to look at but at the same time just trash  pvpwise and this server is so pvp active so why not trying to do something? AND NO IM NOT AGGRESIVE GET THIS OUT OF YOUR HEAD. 

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55 minutes ago, Jordan said:

I think even if we where going to start reworking classes which we likely wouldn't. Why would we target a class like Engieer that already has good use in both PvE and PvP when theres classes like Shaman is practically unplayable in all sitations and the only arguement that could be made is it "can" heal more than a Cleric about about 20%. There is other classes in the same boat as this too that if you where to make a tier list are in the "Don't bother with these classes" tier vs engineer which is likely in the mid to top tiers in various aspects.

I know its off-topic, but I just like to say that you think to much of "this is a classic"
Most of things need to be classic, but as I said in other post and I think a lot of people agree is that things doesn't need to be strictly classic.
Most people liked the % on weapons, you will add a new system to it.
I don't agree with buffing M-dps engineer but buffing shaman to be able to duo heal on PVP with a cleric would be lovely.
Maybe changing his cast speed passive to mace instead of staff ❤️
Make polls, se what people think, add all the knowleged you got by being GM on awakened server to make people still feel the classic experience but with improvements, that would be the best EE server possible to me.

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19 minutes ago, naru said:

 

Not going to bother responding to this post anymore tbh unless you actually read what I said and take the time to understand it and formulate a response. I mean you just proved the exact point I mentioned.

Not going to sit here and argue with someone who's not even listening as I'm just talking to a brick wall at this point. If you want your post to get respect and good responses then actually read what I have to say. Thanks.

 

2 minutes ago, Tuti said:

 

Off topic slight but I'd honestly say Shaman doesn't even need the passive. Its mainy problem is the lack of a PW if I'm being honest. Not saying its the only issue but I think thats the main one.

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1 hour ago, Jordan said:

Off topic slight but I'd honestly say Shaman doesn't even need the passive. Its mainy problem is the lack of a PW if I'm being honest. Not saying its the only issue but I think thats the main one.

At first I wanted to suggest you yo make lv 60 DoD skills and give a AoE debuff removal to Shaman, since almost everyone I know considers a classic server to be a server with only normal classes, lower caps, but not restrictly classic freatures. I just didn't because the path u took for classic server is mostly classic freatures.
So if that's out, I think making Shaman a bit easier to reach instacast specially with same gears as cleric, might make people want to play it even without a PW skill. Because on PVP most party I see have 2-3 healers. Having a Shaman as main heal with 1-2 + cleric that will be able to purify while Shaman maintain the heal could be good.
Well, if you want to consider changing Shaman, we can create a new post to discuss shaman changes, because even it being a classic server, as you said its the only class that has no use either PVP or PVE.

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Oof, there's a lot of things i want to point out now after reading all that.
This is a suggestions Thread can we handle it like that?

Okay so first of all, lots of players are probably denying changes as it is not "classic", however, if you look up the actual meaning of "Classic" - judged over a period of time to be of the highest quality and outstanding of its kind.https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/classic
So it does NOT mean "old" or "what it used to be" at all. Just as Tuti said, there are things on eden that could be improved (like the upcoming Weapon%System) to make the game the best as it can be. I personally welcome any changes that make this game even better, even if it is not the same than what i played 7 years ago.

Now to some statements made here;

1 hour ago, Jordan said:

its just a lot harder to make it work in PvP and inefficient to do so

Yes, it is hard to gear an mdps and make it work - i tried it on normal class TW on awa server, and a friend of mine tried to build it now in the lvl 60 cap. You need to get high Cast dps, Mcritdmg, mcritr and Matk. If you are going all out to build a mdps engi then you'd have to build it only for the engineer. It needs a set for its own, a weapon with certain fortifications which are a waste for a pdps Engi (talking about mcritd, mcritr, etc.) and certain points in the skilltree to somehow make it work. If you do all of that, then you could expect it to be useful. And that's the problem. Even if you get everything perfectly done, it still gets outshined by any halfway-decently equipped Mage. Putting the effort into it is just not worth it, killing the variety everyone praises here...

 

1 hour ago, Jordan said:

I think even if we where going to start reworking classes which we likely wouldn't. Why would we target a class like Engieer

Nobody here ever said that the shaman doesn't need a buff? This Thread was made for the Engineer to gather some suggestions. So of course there are just suggestions for this one. I personally don't play heal, but i'd like to make the mdps engi work, which is why i'm posting here...

 

1 hour ago, Jordan said:

As for the topic buffing super iron man is a bad idea, basically just saying lets make bulwalk from Awaken Engineer on classic.

It's not comparable to the Bulwark from Mecha as the mdps Engi has by far not the inital dmg output from the mecha. much much less Matk, no Glyph that further increases the Matk and you also don't have rockets flying around you dealing free damage for doing basically nothing. (meaning the Mp-drain skill here)
I tested this class on Normal class TW with a 120% Gun, lvl 75 Mcritd Set and full Temple Knight Accessories. If i remember correctly, then i did like 23-27k Dmg (WITH Super iron Man Buff active) onto the enemy, compared to a 35-40k Snowstorm from an equally well equipped mage. (and you can be sure that the enemie preferred to build Ice Resist rather than Fire...)

 

1 hour ago, Jordan said:

Making it a place AoE likely doesn't change anything, might benefit you and your playstyle but will equally hurt someone else and their placestyle as I always find that target AoE and place AoE doesn't really change anything and always just a matter of preference

But... the same thing has been done with the Samurai and Bard AOE after some people were requesting it. So why is it such a problem now?

 

2 hours ago, Jordan said:

Tiny M-ATK buff or a big M-ATK buff wouldn't matter to much.

Combined with:

2 hours ago, Jordan said:

You'd always need to nerf/remove Super Iron Man in order to buff the other areas

So does it matter now or not? Maybe i misunderstood what you we're saying here.

 

2 hours ago, Jordan said:

I've spent a lot of time balancing this game and although not everyone agrees with my choice I think I know balancing pretty well at this point to be able to tell you how to correctly balance it.

idk how to feel about this. I'd love to say the same, but seeing that every good Party in TW always consists of 4 mages/DPS Clerics, 2-3 Heal Clerics, 1 bard and 1 Debuffer/CCer like Illu, MA or Hunter etc. So clearly there are some classes that are much better than others in pvp.
But the Mdps engineer is neither good in pvp nor Pve i feel. you can't really run with it as you have to stay in place to cast your skills so you can't really run with it unless you have reaaally high evasion and cast spd stats. (not saying its impossible- as one can see in the video from naru). Regarding PvP - you've said yourself that it is ineffecient and like i said, it's nowhere near to be comparable to other overused classes in Pvp.

So after all this; i want to make it short. I think that a little Matk boost and a cooldown reduce of like 20sec on SuperIronMan would be enough to make a mdps engineer somewhat useable.

I never said that engineer is a bad class. it definitely has its uses as a low-requirement early and late game runner, as well as some good single target dmg skills as PDPS - The reason i posted this, is that i want the MDPS skills to have the right to exist as they are completely underused due to the problems stated here. It's just a gimmick rather than an actual playstyle,and so i think this could need an improvement.

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2 hours ago, Jordan said:

I think even if we where going to start reworking classes which we likely wouldn't. Why would we target a class like Engieer that already has good use in both PvE and PvP when theres classes like Shaman is practically unplayable in all sitations and the only arguement that could be made is it "can" heal more than a Cleric about about 20%.

Sorry for continuing this off-topic, but i'm a lover of MDPS Shaman, i played a lot of 10v10 and 3v3 here as Shaman halfkin and its is so fun but this works 10% of the times as mdps and 5% as healer. 

As Healer:
As you said the main problem is that it has no PW, beyond that,  Totems are kinda useless, dies too fast, the effects has a small chance of success. Callback is op but too high cooldown time. 20% Cast Speed using Staff is useless here because if you gonna heal, you must use mace/shield and the only spammable skills is the AOE Heal and lightning DoT.

As MDPS
Natural Punishment is not spammable but the glyph makes this usable. That's all. Lightning DoT is useless in PvP (btw you have to cast it and does no base dmg, only procs dot). After the chages in Tornado (can i call it a nerf? and a huge nerf for bard/shaman halfkins) we cant use it to deal dmg when natural pushment is on cooldown.

Shaman can do alot of things, but it always there's other classes doing the same but way better.

If you want to we can create a new topic for shaman suggestions.

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1 hour ago, Skyrith said:

But... the same thing has been done with the Samurai and Bard AOE after some people were requesting it. So why is it such a problem now?

He did that because its classic sky. Bard aoe was at the beginning insta cast and samurai aoe was at the beginning like that too. What ever he wont change it i give up on this. He acts like old ee was perfect and every change would kill the classic experience.

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1 hour ago, Sasori said:

 

Shaman was all but an example of something that if we where to say screw it and start reworking things it would be of a higher priority than Engineer is. Pretty much all classes have a way to make them work but there is some like Shaman that are very low tier and even though you can make them work its like, why play healing Shaman when Cleric can do pretty much everything else better. I'm someone whos of the opinion that there isn't really anything needing to be done because everything has its place. Doesn't mean I cannot listen and discuss with other players about the possibillity.

 

1 hour ago, Skyrith said:

 

I think you missed a lot of what I said / meant judging by the response.

The statment regarding Bulwalk didn't have anything to do with missles and all that mumbo jumbo. What makes Mecha Ares strong is Bulwalk as its a permenant double damage buff. Just like Super Iron Man does. You'd literally be making it strong for the exact same reason Mecha Ares is strong and that is 80~90% down to just having permenant double damage AoE's. This is not a way to balance a class because at the classes core it is still weak and relies on a single buff, which forces people's hand to run buff removal trophies just like it does on the Awaken Server.

 

2 hours ago, Skyrith said:

But... the same thing has been done with the Samurai and Bard AOE after some people were requesting it. So why is it such a problem now?

This point I wanted to specifically highlight as you're comparing Apples to Oranges here.

Samurai is the easist flaw to this statement because its a straight line skill shot and no an AoE skill. When the skill is lock-on target to the enemy, you have to factor in travel time. When the skill is traveling to the target the target can side step and evade the skill without an sort of counter-measure for the Samurai to perform. This makes it really hard to hit targets that are constantly moving and makes the Samurai almost unplayable in PvP. With the place AoE however you can use it to predict where the target will move too and fire the skill shot at the direction they're running towards rather than the location they're moving from. This is a massive difference and any Samura player would agree with me unless you're talking about boss hunting, then bosses are much easier without having to aim as they do not move.

As for Bard again Apples to Oranges. People didn't care as much for the place AoE as they cared for the instant cast. The place AoE just came with it although I could have happily left it a target AoE and people would still be just as happy with the Instant cast being back.

If you're having doubts about the points I made please refer to the original suggestion posts to understand what I'm talking about:

https://forum.vendettagn.com/index.php?/topic/10523-bard-skill/
https://forum.vendettagn.com/index.php?/topic/10603-old-samurai-skills/

 

2 hours ago, Skyrith said:

idk how to feel about this. I'd love to say the same, but seeing that every good Party in TW always consists of 4 mages/DPS Clerics, 2-3 Heal Clerics, 1 bard and 1 Debuffer/CCer like Illu, MA or Hunter etc. So clearly there are some classes that are much better than others in pvp.
But the Mdps engineer is neither good in pvp nor Pve i feel. you can't really run with it as you have to stay in place to cast your skills so you can't really run with it unless you have reaaally high evasion and cast spd stats. (not saying its impossible- as one can see in the video from naru). Regarding PvP - you've said yourself that it is ineffecient and like i said, it's nowhere near to be comparable to other overused classes in Pvp.
 

Again you missed what I meant by my post. I'm not saying that every class is balanced nore am I saying Engineer is a super powerful underrated class. What I'm simply saying with my statement is your approach to balancing is wrong.

If we where to change the class, keeping it reliant on a buff so heavily will not do the class any justice because if the class does become popular then people start spamming trophys like Kenny and other Buff Removal gears. You need to fix what is broken at the core of the class. Low M-ATK? Boost the Skill M-ATK as it gets added together anyway. Just throwing durations and buffs at DMG increase buffs is the exact thing that went wrong with Awaken Classes.

Put it this way... So say we do your changes we give it more M-ATK and reduce the cooldown of the skill. What happens at 70 Cap when the 70 Double DMG gun comes? What happens when the games M-ATK thresholds get bigger and bigger from the increases of gear? We end up with a situation where we have to rebalance it update by update.

Just tacking buffs onto something doesn't always solve the problem and I've learn't that the hard way over many years of constant class balancing to the point where it makes my head want to expload everytime I hear the phrase "class balancing".

 

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4 minutes ago, Jordan said:

So say we do your changes we give it more M-ATK and reduce the cooldown of the skill. What happens at 70 Cap when the 70 Double DMG gun comes?

I guess the same that will happen when the lvl 70 staff or lvl 75 Awakened staff with double Dmg comes? And Mage is by far more of a candidat to surpass any M-Atk thresholds - making DPS Cleric and Mage the only option if you want to achieve something in PvP.

Don't understand me wrong with all of my ideas. It's not my goal to make MDPS Engi the new mage. It's just soooo lackluster compared to other options and i wanted this thread to gather some ideas on how to solve it and make the Mdps Engi a fun and valid playstyle - as he already offers these skills. I'd be even fine with removing the SuperIronMan Buff and just increase the dmg output somehow (either skill dmg, or more Matk on Guns, or Matk Bonus when in Mecha-state - whatever ideas there might be). I solely made the above suggestions because i think they are rather easy to implement without reworking the whole class or removing/adding skills. I even said myself that adding all of it is probably a bad idea and it would then be too broken.
Those were just Suggestions and i'd be happy now to read some more actual suggestions rather than complaining or justifying why some ideas are necessary/not ideal or talking Off-topic every second post...

another idea which just came by reading your post Jordan;
Maybe decrease the dmg buff of SuperIronMan to like 30 or 50% (and not double-dmg) and instead increase base dmg so its not solely reliant on that single buff

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Just now, Skyrith said:

another idea which just came by reading your post Jordan;
Maybe decrease the dmg buff of SuperIronMan to like 30 or 50% (and not double-dmg) and instead increase base dmg so its not solely reliant on that single buff

Well this is what I was trying to explain in my original post. You'd need to basically make this skill into something really minor and then buff the core skills to match the damage of other classes. That way the damage is more consistant like Mages Snow Storm is or Clerics Holy Smite is. Then you can add things like timed M-ATK buffs or timed cast speed buffs or maybe a damage reduction buff to make it a smaller damage but tankier kinda mage.

You basically need to remove the reliance on the buff entirely and then make the class function with out it before figuring out what to do with the Super Iron Man.

It's one of the problems Dragon Knight has too. Because it's skill combinations are all tied to its buffs when the buff is on cooldown you're basically a potato for the next 60 seconds or so. Playing it in a Hybrid manner can negate the problem slightly but not entirely.

But I hope you understand what I mean.

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Yes i understand now. I guess i was myself a little bit distracted because of all the off-topic stuff here...

But yeah, i think nerfing SuperIronMan and buffing the initial damage somehow to let a mdps engi deal more consistent dmg rather than short and buff-reliant burst dmg is a better way of thinking.

I know that there are some other priorities right now (Weapon%System, releasing Content on Classic and Awa and other Classes that are in need of a rework) but i really hope we can come back to this and in the meantime, gather some more ideas and possibilities make mdps great again (or rather, for the first time...^_^)

I'd love to see some other Peoples opinion here about the mdps Engineer.

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1 hour ago, Jordan said:

 

 This makes it really hard to hit targets that are constantly moving and makes the Samurai almost unplayable in PvP. With the place AoE however you can use it to predict where the target will move too and fire the skill shot at the direction they're running towards rather than the location they're moving from. This is a massive difference and any Samura player would agree with me

 

Can you explain me why samurai has to work in pvp ? You said every class has its place so why changing the aoe so it can be used in pvp too ? The samu player base could just accept the fact that their beloved class is a pve class just like engi. I mean i know the samu aoe was when they released it like this too but seeing you telling us that it wouldnt work in pvp if its not like this, is kinda funny cuz you said not every class needs to be pvp viable.

6 hours ago, Jordan said:

I'm just not sure why we need to rework an entire class on a Classic server. It's not like MDPS engineer is completely useless its just a lot harder to make it work in PvP and inefficient to do so. Doesn't mean its useless and doesn't mean every single class has to be PvP viable.

 

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2 hours ago, naru said:

Can you explain me why samurai has to work in pvp ? You said every class has its place so why changing the aoe so it can be used in pvp too ? The samu player base could just accept the fact that their beloved class is a pve class just like engi. I mean i know the samu aoe was when they released it like this too but seeing you telling us that it wouldnt work in pvp if its not like this, is kinda funny cuz you said not every class needs to be pvp viable.

 

Even without the change to the AoE skill Samurai is a good class to cap crystal, so it's used in PvP & it's not a "PvE class like the Engi". It's just an useful revert, since it was already like that before.

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5 hours ago, Luxdrayn said:

Even without the change to the AoE skill Samurai is a good class to cap crystal, so it's used in PvP & it's not a "PvE class like the Engi". It's just an useful revert, since it was already like that before.

i want to hear a explanation from jordan. Ik that you can use samu without the change too but thats not what meant with my post.

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25 minutes ago, naru said:

i want to hear a explanation from jordan. Ik that you can use samu without the change too but thats not what meant with my post.

My goodness you're dumb and just looking for a fight lol.

People suggested I revereted a class to its original form because it was better like that. I followed their suggestion because it is better than it is now and it's part of classic.

You are suggest I follow the path I went with Awaken and rework classes or atleast part of a class. This is an entirely different arguement. The whole purpose of the discussion is why I said "Making it a place AoE likely doesn't change anything". The person simply asked why I bothered changing the other classes so I specifically stated why I did change them and why it doesn't effect Engineer but effects those 2 classes. This has nothing to do with reworks and if you reply with this hostile nonsene more I will simply just ignore the replys regardless if you're asking for my response or not.

You're wasting my time dealing with your nonsense. Take a note from Skyrith. They listen, they try to understand what I'm saying, they make counter points or question my thoughts. They give information. You do not have to agree with me but shouting and throwing a tantrum everytime someone negates your ideas is just silly and a waste of everyones time.

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M-DPS Engineer can't be buffed too much remember if had too much stuff will be like mimic on last days from his metha, killing everyone with 1 black explosive, also u guys testing stuff with resist drop? or just spaming skills with some stats, i've tested it by my own easly 25k dmg on templar with 70 resist max, drop 42 resist then 28 was his resist, that without triple just 100% of cast/m rate and 3.0 m dmg.
Luminary case is too much hard to talk and touch it will be nerfed on cap 80 maybe if jordan increase it cause on Awaken server with 80 kp points and lv 78 set and other items lv80 i can easly kill healer solo, or one shot mostly of dps, whatever they do, only way to escape from dying is running in circles and even that can help you sometimes.
Mage on cap 60 is super broken that's what disapoint me of playing on classic, talking about spam skills without any mechanics, we can just see it on Nick's video which he goes from 1 kill to 19 in like 5 seconds, isn't only 1 mage on party but on classic we have 200 players per tw.

Good deal for Engineer MDPS? give cast spd so u can use mdmg set, this will make this class ''usable'' without +10 full reseted stuff.


Changing class kill the idea of classic if u want to be classic play with what u have not changes, awaken server had alot of reworks and it killed some idea of classes. (just a point)

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