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PvP Changes (Awaken)


Jordan
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13 hours ago, Jordan said:

I do think however, that this could be a really fun mode but I do feel it would need to be atleast 5v5 in-order-to be fun. Since that would allow you at the very least to build some sort of structured party.

I would probably like it as a 5v5 here as well. On Twin Saga, the 3v3 and 5v5 arenas were the exact same thing. For Eden though, I think a 5v5 would fit us better and be a lot of fun!

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Hello, it's me, Sirocco. Long time without coming here.

I know i'll get a lot of backfire for what I'm about to write here, but I feel that I must single this out: The reason why PVP is so hard to balance in Awaken classes isn't related to the DMG they deal, but the amount of different buffs and debuffs they apply.

It's pretty much impossible to balance all PVP modes without tinkering on the class buffs/debuffs. What seems balanced for TWs and GvGs with multiple Holy Sages and Glacier Knights (and the 10+ cleanse everytime) can't work properly in 3v3 or 10v10. The only solution I ever saw regarding this issue is simple to understand, but very exhausting to execute: Change how the entire system works. I've made a couple of suggestions in the spoiler below. It's an idea of how a different buff system would work, giving priority to stuff that really matters and making it easier to balance stuff outside of +DMG or -DMG.
 

Spoiler

 

EjmdeLC.png

 

 

 

 

I know this isn't a class balancing thread, but in my humble opinion, without the correct management of how CC works, we're stuck forever into playing the same 10+ cleansing classes or spamming Reaver/Conjurer regardless of PVP scale. Forcing 2 classes in a 3v3 PVP, in a game with 40 Awaken classes + Mimic is ridiculous. 

Any further development of my suggestion is appreciated, since i'm not a game developer, but a player giving incomplete suggestions. 

PS: Someone mentioned how some items are toxic to the balance issue, such as Frozen in Time and Smoke Bombs. I agree, it makes a bit harder to balance classes because you must take the possible usage of items into account. 

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  • VGN GM

As of the last time you mentioned this suggestion and although this suggestion makes sense for the most part.

You can't really do changes like this to a well established game. You can't really wake up one day and say right, we're reworking an entire mechanic that effects not only 61 classes (Which is technically x5 since 5 races) but also every single boss/monster.

The buff system is basically how the entire backend of this game works. KP is buffs, achievement titles are buffs, equipment are buffs and the list just goes on. Like my character is outdated it has almost all 65 achievements I'm just missing like 4 enchants using a 95 set and gears that where acceptable at 95 gears. Even without glyphs and a pet pray I had over 150 buffs active on my character. So you can probably double that atleast for normal geared characters.

So although in theory changing something like this might look simple on the outside, your talking about modifying literally about 50,000 - 60,000 items of data and thats after you add the functionality such as prioritzing the Tier 1 buffs over the Tier 2 buffs.

Regardless of the above information the only other factor I can mention is this would take months of work for something I don't really think people would want / appreciate. In theory yeh it's more balanced but at the end of the day its not really EE. I would argue that it's not really super imbalanced now (asside from PDPS being a bit too strong in PvE). A lot of classes even if not played are actually playable in PvP modes and all it takes is for someone to actually build it and try it before it becomes the new thing that people play. The only issue comes from the fact that the game is balanced around the idea of group PvP and thats why when you introduce 3v3 to the mix its just super imbalanced. However, the aim of this post was to try and find ways to make the lower scale PvP's more balanced or at the very least, more fun.

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5 hours ago, Jordan said:

The only issue comes from the fact that the game is balanced around the idea of group PvP and thats why when you introduce 3v3 to the mix its just super imbalanced. However, the aim of this post was to try and find ways to make the lower scale PvP's more balanced or at the very least, more fun.

I expected your answer to  be exactly like this, and I agree about the work. This is why I know it's not practical, i'm just pointing out stuff. The reason why 3v3s were sucessful in the classic era is because normal classes didn't add 823732849 debuffs on their combos. Nowadays, Reaver itself can force atrocities as Holy Sage and GK cleansing skills. 3v3 is super imbalanced in Awaken era because of debuffs, since you can't react if you're permanently root or knocked down, and you won't count on a pair of GK/HS to back you up every arena.

No matter how many good suggestions pop there, it will always end up being into artifical stuff such as "More HP" or "Less DMG taken" inside arenas, in a false hope of allowing people to wait until the CC chain is over so they can actually play the game.

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12 minutes ago, Reikan said:

No matter how many good suggestions pop there, it will always end up being into artifical stuff such as "More HP" or "Less DMG taken" inside arenas, in a false hope of allowing people to wait until the CC chain is over so they can actually play the game.

Well I wouldn't say that cause there has been stages in this servers life span where 3v3 was very active and reaver was in much worse states than its current form. So although yes I'm likely to agree with you that not much would change. But if we can tackle issues and address issues that are present that are currently gating people from it (Such as some have mentioned the rewards and the arena sets being a couple of reasons to note) then at the very least getting it into a state where theres a couple of matches a day rather than a couple matches a week then thats something to strive for right? I mean after all if people are playing this server over Classic then the reason is clear that they prefer the current balance of awakens to that of normal classes so I don't really think a reaver CC chain is the reason they're not queuing.

This post has provided me with some good insighed already on some changes that can be made just like the Classic version of this very same post. So overall I think there is still improvements that can be done overall without even needing to touch any classes. I'm actually more worried about people stacking healers and shielders and coordinating that way that someone reaver chaining someone.

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On 8/21/2020 at 11:47 AM, Jordan said:

I'm actually more worried about people stacking healers and shielders and coordinating that way that someone reaver chaining someone.

This is another worrisome point. Do you have any ideas to avoid turtling in arenas?

I'm sorry for not contributing as much as I would like, but i've been away for almost 1 year due to real life issues so I can't really give precise opinions on current state of the game.

I hope everything works out, I want to come back as soon as possible. Love your work on Awaken server. :D

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On 8/22/2020 at 4:16 PM, Reikan said:

This is another worrisome point. Do you have any ideas to avoid turtling in arenas?

I'm sorry for not contributing as much as I would like, but i've been away for almost 1 year due to real life issues so I can't really give precise opinions on current state of the game.

I hope everything works out, I want to come back as soon as possible. Love your work on Awaken server. :D

Other than maybe lowering the round timer and maybe playing about with the win condition such as damage dealt so if people just sit in a corner "surviving" they will still lose in the end unless they can kill the enemies.

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • VGN GM

Just an update to the current situation.

As PvP outside of TW/GVG has been dead for a while on this server (Except the odd 3v3 here and there) I have came up based on the responses on this post and my own thoughts a change list that will be progressed with over the next few months (Likely one mode at a time).

If you have anything to add / discuss you may comment after this to discuss. However, I'm pretty dead set with these changes atleast.

  • Elysian Island Changes
    • Similar rework to Classic:
      • Fix any spawning issues with bosses.
      • Disable Battle Pets.
      • Enforce a stricter level cap.
      • Disable Arena Gear (Armor, Badges and Enchants).
      • Updated HP Buff.
      • Updated Rewards.
      • Updated Ranking Rewards.
      • More fixes to the friendly fire issues.
    • Update the Boss Skills and Stats to match the current gear level.
    • Update the Monster Stats to match the current gear level.
    • Disabled the following items:
      • Engineering Potions.
    • Will Alternate with Temple Arena on days it is open.
  • Temple Arena Changes
    • Removed the use of Reality Potions.
    • Update the Rewards.
    • Upgradable Versions of the current Trophys.
    • Update the Boss Skills and Stats to match the current gear level.
      • Note: The reason I will not be making a Version 2 as suggested is that it's just too complicated and will likely have a lot of bugs to iron out. This will take up far too much time that could be spent on other projects and likely even if there is two versions, most people would only actually take advantage of the version deemed "better".
    • Check and disable battle pets.
    • Check and disable Arena Gear.
    • Will Alternate with Elysian Island on days it is open.
  • 3v3 Changes
    • Update the HP Buff.
      • Depending on changes might require some Healing Debuffs.
    • Disable Battle Pets.
    • Removal of Arena Gear (Armor, Badges and Enchants).
    • Disable Class Changing during a match (Still will be enabled at preparation times).
    • Will become a Timed Event instead of an All Day Event.
    • Possible Change: New Map (We're in the process of testing a few).
  • 3v3 Things to Watch
    • Impact of Shielder.
    • Impact of Immunity Potions.
  • 10v10 Changes
    • Will be completely removed / revamped for another game mode.
    • Some Rough Ideas:
      • Updated into a 5v5 Mode.
      • Removed Arena Gear / Pets.
      • Disabled Class Changing during the Match.
      • Likely have a map objective (Capture the Flag, Crystal Capture, etc.)
        • Could even end up with multiple modes in either an RNG or rotation.
      • Improved Spawning System to help with regrouping.
  • Monster Battle Arena
    • Monster Rebalancing (Check Classic Patch 11).
    • Remove Battle Pets.
    • Remove Arena Gear.
    • Possible Change: New Monsters, based on custom content.
    • Possible Change: Stat balancing across the board so Armors and Class Passives etc are ineffective.

 

Now I have some other things planned for the upcoming Five Year Anniversary, So I cannot say when exactly these changes will be implemented. But it will likely start with 3v3 and go from there. I will hope to have all the changes done this year but it just depends as I will likely be working on some content for the end of the year too. But this is what I currently have in mind, Hope this hits some of your expectations and might event bring some life back to these modes.

Edited by Herakles
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  • 8 months later...

Hey, since weekends pvp is dead most of the times, I thought that implementing given pod as in nctw might be a good idea. Example of sundays having to pod 5 times a day, 3 tws, 1 gvg (usually 1 round is vs alt guild so no pod needed) and 1 ga makes people just skip tws frankly.  Me personally I skip them a lot of times even tho I'd enjoy them cos I spend more time podding than playing the game otherwise. If you are pvp exclusive you can save buffs by logging off but feels not a smart move since you are basically encouraging players to log off the game and not pve either.

 

If it was given as in nctw where you literally just have to click join that might help to give life to weekends tws instead of having to pm people if they are gonna assist or not.

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I agree with the pod buffs as well.

There's been recent phenomemon of ppl just using conju, going full movespeed set up, and then just cheesing/disengaging.
Im not against guerilla warfare as that is my main playstyle in TW, but ppl dont use conju in teamfights to cc as much as using it as a 1v1 ambush cheese class, which is a tad bit unhealthy in my opinion, because that offers little counterplay aside from grabbing a healer, or it just forces u to also play conju, which turns it into a League of Pick/Ban situation, except here we cant ban.
I think both conju CC and the cap movespeed in TW need to be nerfed to something more reasonable, like losing 0.5 seconds and dropping cap speed to 185%.

Healing is also a bit oppressive tbh, even tho healers lack agency, ppl just squad up with an army of healers, it just makes group fights tedious, stat checky, and repetitive.

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54 minutes ago, SmolShibe said:

I agree with the pod buffs as well.

There's been recent phenomemon of ppl just using conju, going full movespeed set up, and then just cheesing/disengaging.
Im not against guerilla warfare as that is my main playstyle in TW, but ppl dont use conju in teamfights to cc as much as using it as a 1v1 ambush cheese class, which is a tad bit unhealthy in my opinion, because that offers little counterplay aside from grabbing a healer, or it just forces u to also play conju, which turns it into a League of Pick/Ban situation, except here we cant ban.
I think both conju CC and the cap movespeed in TW need to be nerfed to something more reasonable, like losing 0.5 seconds and dropping cap speed to 185%.

Healing is also a bit oppressive tbh, even tho healers lack agency, ppl just squad up with an army of healers, it just makes group fights tedious, stat checky, and repetitive.

yeah conju is such an unhealthy class even if you got an item to morph you out of worm morph like alpaca gem it has another long cc, but even if you do survive the 3 sources of dot you can't catch them since they got  capped ms even without mount. now for the healer thing it's quite simple people either try to deal with healers with a ton of cc or dmg but not both so if you cc them for like 2 minutes but have no dmg they'll just survive though shield blocks, and if you are focusing on dmg they will just heal as much as you do dmg since nobody is stopping them

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