Early game as a MDPS main

[Reikan]

Hello there, it's me, Sirocco.

I'm writing this topic to approach a subject that has been discussed with friends for a long, long time, even before I had to stop playing, and coming back after a year I still see the issue has not been touched.

The PVE aspect of the game (which, for now, has been the "only" feature offered for at least 80% of the community) has its balance completely weighted towards Physical classes. Early game it's advised to level up as Engineer, Knight, or anything in that line. People who level up as Mages or Clerics usually level up slower due to Cast speed issues. Luminary doesn't suffer a lot from that, but it's still far behind in comparison to Physical classes, and it's still not a traditional magic class.

But it gets worse when you reach the Breakthrough Point. Berserker, Blood Knight, all of the PDPS classes are far superior to Magic Classes, except maybe for Mecha, which isn't really a traditional Magic class. All of the Physical Mainstream classes have access to fast clears and some sort of sustain, while our only Magic classes that can compare are the heavily nerfed* Gravity Manipulator (nerfed due to PVP), and the Druid (who is stuck behind a DOT mechanic, and has far lower DMG compared to PDPS classes)

*The nerfs on GM affects its efficiency in PVE far more than in PVP. While other classes can just hit and heal, GM has to keep track of stacks and lose DPS time in order to heal. In the long run, GM is just gimmicking around while other classes have 3x its efficiency. Even Druid is better for PVE.

Why is this an issue? I'll explain: It turns down most of the people who enjoy playing traditional mages. People have to build up entire setups of Physical classes in order to reach a certain point where MDPS are used, and most of the time, they're still gated to use their classes only in certain scenarios where gimmicks were made to force MDPS classes. People don't use these classes on PVE because they're optimal, they just use because the game forces it to be used, otherwise you can't surpass the challenge.

I know that we can, now, separate PVE and PVP status in the same gears, is it possible to be done in skills too? Maybe with a +PVE DMG dealt on some Magical Classes, they'd be more appealing to new players, and we would have more chances of keeping the new players around. I tried to convince a group of friends to play with me since I came back, but they all quit when they saw how much MDPS classes struggle early-on.

This "vengeful"* attitude from the staff isn't going to help the game growing.

*The speech of "Magic classes were at the top for a long time, let the PDPS shine"

That's now how balance works, you shouldn't just ignore half of the class roster because in the past, the game wasn't properly balanced.

Thanks in advance.

[infecttado]

For leveling only until Lv79 Mage and cleric is stronger than all others in my opinion, and this because they can just spam skills with enough dmg for pve content.
After this we get awaken classes.
Blade Acrobat without holy skills depend of items for having auto sustain, but still a good option.
Riffliter is super nice for starters having or not good gears it works perfecly.

MDPS on PvE just got frustrated cause deal less dmg than P-DPS by far and have no chance on some party comp.

Now M-DPS is necessary and mechanics helps alot the class cause with M-DPS you need to pay more attention, i don't think it can be good for New DNG like Abyss, i did some dng with a good party and DNG looks so good with MDPS works perfecly and its fun.

Gravity was the only playable M-DPS before, and its super usefull on dng cause it BURST ALOT when party have - resist procs, still the highest dmg of magic classes.

Idea of Increase M DMG delt on PvE is good but it can be bad at same point making Shiny of Some classes and killing others, maybe making people use 2 of same class Like 2 Gravity on party cause its good enough if boost it can be too much.



Good Exemple is Battlefield Poet which deal good dmg on PvE and can be comparated to Equilibrian but never to GM or Holy Blade.

Or DT which is kinda useless since bosses have limit of resist drop and we already do that, and his dmg isn't that high.

In general M-DPS are weaker than P-DPS and i think force player build M-DPS just because boss don't get Physic dmg is ok, not good but ok, and its working.

Still good idea boost M-DMG Delt but need pay attention how bad it can be.

[Reikan]

10 minutes ago, infecttado said:

Still good idea boost M-DMG Delt but need pay attention how bad it can be.

I'll take this part out to give you a complete answer about what I have in mind.

If someone mains, say, Asura. They can use their same gears with many classes that can be used pretty much anywhere in PVE. Trials, World Bosses, Farming dungeons (Blade Acrobat, Rifleteer/Reaver etc), the list goes on. Basically, the person can effectively play as their main group of classes for the entire day while being productive and effective.

Now we talk about the MDPS mains. They can do Palace on Druid/GM, but they'll take 2 extra minutes due to Gimmicks or lesser DMG. Soloing world bosses won't happen. Trials? If you play DT as a %DMG bot, maybe, but most of the people don't care about any MDPS classes. MDPS mains will have a very strict range of activities to do while being effective.

No matter how much Gravity Manipulator can "burst" if you set up with your party, a Slash party will simply have access to -150 Slash RES and everyone in the party will contribute with high DMG (Executioner, Assassin, Berserker, Blade Master - They all have high DPS output), while it doesn't happen on MDPS setups. Pretty much only the GM will be "hitting big numbers" (still lower than BM, of course), while all the others will be just the GM supports. It will only end up in a really slower run, even if you do be able to finish the content with magic classes.

The idea here isn't forcing MDPS back into top tier PVE, but allowing MDPS mains to actually do something in their own classes while they play the daily routine of the game, without being punished for chosing a "weaker" group of classes.

[Jordan]

Not really sure what you're hoping for as the problem stems further than just a damage issue. Like everything you said kinda goes with the meta and the only solution I can see from reading both replies is to add more damage which yeh is possible in the way you proposed where we could just say "right every class now gets PvE Magic DMG Dealt" but does that really cover the issue. They are weaker for a reason and it's always been that way when it comes to PvE. For example in Playeden yeh everyone and their mother played Illusionist. But I could solo Kimba faster playing on 3 characters on the same computer tabbing back and fourth than 4 Illu's + 1 Healer. I mean just look at the Classic server halloween event. The top times where all PDPS focused parties and the Illusionist was basically just a KD/Sleep/MP Support.

I also would like to mention that you didn't even mention anything about half the good MDPS classes that exist. Yeh you can make the arguement that "Well Equi is a good class but deals no damage it's only there for support". But Darkness Blade can support and deal a lot of damage too, even though you mentioned it, Demon Taimer can also serve the same purpose too and then finally you have Demon Summoner which again is another MDPS class that can support and deal damage. Yeh it wont be as high as a GM but one can argue its more consistent and more reliable damage and doesn't have to suffer the same fate of a 2-3 second delay between hits due to jumping. So just because you don't consider classes to be as strong as others doesn't mean they're not. Just because GM was nerfed to be a little less forgiving doesn't mean its the only playable MDPS class, yeh maybe from a soloing boss aspect you can argue it is but you could solo bosses on a lot of classes if you kite right.

The issue is more so that classes like Executioner and Blade Master do far too much damage. Which makes the MDPS classes feel weaker than they are. Like for example sit down and think of a party structure that doesn't include them and what classes come to mind? Like with this last dungeon update for-example. When testing was first started it kinda became a thing of "how can I do this boss with an Executioner" in party. Rather than "what class combination would work for this boss". Like even now bosses that we tested with Executioner not being used, I've seen videos and screenshots of people still doing thos bosses on Executioner. So kinda just shows that the real issue IMO.

And before you point out about classes like Beserker being not mentioned by myself. I know the class is strong and I know its very easy to solo content on it. But it's kinda the point. I would argue the same that Totem Master makes certain content also very easy too along with following which are only just the first that come to mind (Mecha, GM, BK, DE, BA, Equi).

So to kinda conclude, no I will not just start throwing PvE damage at classes and hope for some sort of balance to come out of it. So if that's all thats going to be suggested then i guess agree to disagree its whatever. However, if you have ideas that are specific to classes then be my guest to suggest them as even if I don't agree with something you never know another idea could spark from the basis of that idea and end up with something in the middle. Like one could argue as nice as Arch-Ele is, it's just not really worth the effort and could be reworked into something of more of a standard Mage.

5 hours ago, Reikan said:

I know that we can, now, separate PVE and PVP status in the same gears, is it possible to be done in skills too? 

This is a very specific stat change and will be kept to a minimum as its not something the game supports and is something I've kinda just had to add on myself. Yeh more could be done but I'd rather not over-complicate things code wise. So buffs CAN have PvE/PvP stats TO A POINT but skills cannot really have a difference between PvE/PvP. Unless its not used in a certain capacity like Glyphs/KP/Self Buffs etc. I also couldn't really tell you to what point they can as literally its on a need basis it gets added in, so right now only the ones listed on the patch notes actually are possible right now.

 

5 hours ago, Reikan said:

This "vengeful"* attitude from the staff isn't going to help the game growing.

*The speech of "Magic classes were at the top for a long time, let the PDPS shine"

That's now how balance works, you shouldn't just ignore half of the class roster because in the past, the game wasn't properly balanced.

Not sure why this kinda "dig" is necessary but kinda just devalues the whole topic TBH. So less of this would be appreicated.

 

4 hours ago, infecttado said:

For leveling only until Lv79 Mage and cleric is stronger than all others in my opinion, and this because they can just spam skills with enough dmg for pve content.

If you think Mage is stronger than any class at any point of time you clearly don't know what you're talking about (Unless you're talking 100% about grinding places like DD, as then yes Mage is Top 3 on that end). Mage is terrible in PvE outside of monster clearing as its slow to kill bosses same with Cleric (However, Cleric has the added benefit of healing itself so does help for soloing hard content unless you have the Awaken 75 Axe then same thing as Mage, useless). And before you mention about PvP, Mage is maybe Top 5 at best, as Illu, Lumi and DK all trump it in that aspect). Guess you could say tho that it's probebly top 3 pre-70 lol.

[infecttado]

13 minutes ago, Jordan said:

If you think Mage is stronger than any class at any point of time you clearly don't know what you're talking about

for leveling i said and my opinion, how i level up.
Ik now other classes has good stuff to which compares or its better than mage, like Lumy , which is my main, i think its easier than others for killing boss but i prefer mage for clearing than cleric and engineer (if we talking only about 1-79 on VGN awaken server which have free +10 weapon and armor)

 

 

15 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Unless you're talking 100% about grinding places like DD, as then yes Mage is Top 3 on that end

i never tried others instead of mage/cleric (75>80+ Normal class)
 

16 minutes ago, Jordan said:

And before you mention about PvP, Mage is maybe Top 5 at best, as Illu, Lumi and DK all trump it in that aspect)

Ew pvp is problematic prefer not talk about. (Each one have one vision of how its)
 

19 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Guess you could say tho that it's probebly top 3 pre-70 lol

I prefer say top 1-5 doesn't exist cause All of those has super good skills and gameplay so 1-5 can be those but never like say class X is top1 by far or Y top 5, but yeah those are top tier m-dps classes.
 

22 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Like one could argue as nice as Arch-Ele is, it's just not really worth the effort and could be reworked into something of more of a standard Mage.

Your version of AE kills Aeria one by far not on status but gameplay with it is SO good never found good point of using on boss and idk how it can react, i will try anyday.

[Reikan]

7 hours ago, Jordan said:

...

I'll try to reply to everything in a concise way.

1) The reason why I mention "past experiences" is exactly to discredit this kind of argument such as "In Playeden everyone went"... Well, playeden is gone, this is EEVGN and magic classes are used in 5% of the PVE content of the game. Great.

2) I didn't mention other MDPS's to avoid the topic being too long, since I wanted to consider general usability of each class in a daily routine experience. I didn't want to delve into Fire-Oriented parties with Kage, Dragon Emperor, Mecha and DT, nor into Darkness parties with Equilibrian, Darkness blade etc. It's too much stuff to talk about when it all comes down to: Magic classes, even when properly combined, are inferior to Physical Classes in PVE. Period.

3) You can solo bosses on a lot of classes if you kite right, but you'll always be 200% slower (or more) if you were just using any of the lifesteal PDPS classes and pressing 1-2-3. We don't have a Magic Counterpart for that.

4) I agree that Executioner and Blade Master do too much DMG, but have you thought about how -Slash exists in late game items? No other resistance can be broken as much as Slash resist. Maybe Dark, but the classes that synergize with Dark have far inferior DMG to the ones with Slash. Think about it for a moment.

5) I don't mind about Berserker, but it would be good to have a MDPS version of it. Demon Tamer used to be capable of soloing stuff with a nice regen buff, but it was changed into an (Healthier, I agree) invulnerability frame, which made soloing bosses very hard due to high cooldowns.

6) About the Suggestions. I had a couple of them in mind when creating the topic, but I didn't want to just throw them before having some input from other people. Doing so would devalue a bit of the topic potential, so i'll just try to point out nice things to have around:

Daily Routine of Dungeons (Palace of Dreams and such): Pretty much any AoE Magic class could fit here, but it would be nice if our standard Mage (AKA Arch-Elementalist) took part into this routine. Giving it simpler, shorter combos without the need to stack so much, would turn it into a "Magic Blade Acrobat". Hydra Spells could be the Magic Counterpart to "Double Damage Sword Dance" that BA has access in two skills. Druid could be good for the potential of hitting without having to stop running, but it would need some kind of 1v1 potential to clear bosses faster.

Boss-Soloing: This one is a bit tricky, since Lifesteal on Ranged Classes tend to be problematic on PVP, and the goal of the Topic is affecting only the PVE routine of Magic Classes. Thinking about it for a long time, I decided to suggest another rework to Gravity Manipulator, one which is not Burst-Related:

- Gravity manipulator could create small Blackholes that persist on place and deal constant DMG, pretty much like a Totem but without % DMG. With a somewhat low DMG potential, and being able to be stacked, it would boost a lot of the class potential to solo bosses, without hurting the PVP, since people could just walk out of the skill zones.

- Tornado Wings is a skill that's outclassed by Feather of Darkness/Lightness, since its only purpose is "having a source of AoE" but now, feathers are already AoE with the Glyph. Could change it into the suggested skill above.

- Soloing bosses as GM would be as easy as "placing the black holes and dashing around to heal". 

Running: We have Mecha for that, but as said before, even though Mecha is a MDPS, it's not a traditional magic class. Possible runners would be Demon Tamer (I was able to run camp with it, Descending Death could be adjusted for that with a lower cooldown + lifesteal + debuff immunity - such as Demonfire), Druid (if the DOT was % such as Totem or BK). The running change isn't much needed, but would be fun to have diversity here aswell.

I'm sorry for the long reply, but the topic means a lot to me and my friends, since it affects directly the fun we have on the root of our activity in the game.

[Jordan]

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

I'll try to reply to everything in a concise way.

1) The reason why I mention "past experiences" is exactly to discredit this kind of argument such as "In Playeden everyone went"... Well, playeden is gone, this is EEVGN and magic classes are used in 5% of the PVE content of the game. Great.

I also brought current examples to the table like Classic.

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

2) I didn't mention other MDPS's to avoid the topic being too long, since I wanted to consider general usability of each class in a daily routine experience. I didn't want to delve into Fire-Oriented parties with Kage, Dragon Emperor, Mecha and DT, nor into Darkness parties with Equilibrian, Darkness blade etc. It's too much stuff to talk about when it all comes down to: Magic classes, even when properly combined, are inferior to Physical Classes in PVE. Period.

3) You can solo bosses on a lot of classes if you kite right, but you'll always be 200% slower (or more) if you were just using any of the lifesteal PDPS classes and pressing 1-2-3. We don't have a Magic Counterpart for that.

4) I agree that Executioner and Blade Master do too much DMG, but have you thought about how -Slash exists in late game items? No other resistance can be broken as much as Slash resist. Maybe Dark, but the classes that synergize with Dark have far inferior DMG to the ones with Slash. Think about it for a moment.

Negative resistance have a cap. So just because there is a lot of it doesn't make it hugely better as its almost as easy to proc -Fire and -Dark as it is to do -Slash. And arguebly these classes would still do as much damage without the -Slash than with it since the reason they're good is all that +DMG they have.

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

5) I don't mind about Berserker, but it would be good to have a MDPS version of it. Demon Tamer used to be capable of soloing stuff with a nice regen buff, but it was changed into an (Healthier, I agree) invulnerability frame, which made soloing bosses very hard due to high cooldowns.

One could argue Equi can be made this way and at one point was used this way before people started on the PDPS only hype train.

 

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

- Gravity manipulator could create small Blackholes that persist on place and deal constant DMG, pretty much like a Totem but without % DMG. With a somewhat low DMG potential, and being able to be stacked, it would boost a lot of the class potential to solo bosses, without hurting the PVP, since people could just walk out of the skill zones.

I don't really see how this help really much unless it just sat there lowering holy/dark resistance so GM could support itself.

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

- Tornado Wings is a skill that's outclassed by Feather of Darkness/Lightness, since its only purpose is "having a source of AoE" but now, feathers are already AoE with the Glyph. Could change it into the suggested skill above.

I personally have a lot of use for this skill atleast when I played. It's very good for quick wiping since you lose damage on Aoe Feather. But I guess differance of opinion.

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

Daily Routine of Dungeons (Palace of Dreams and such): Pretty much any AoE Magic class could fit here, but it would be nice if our standard Mage (AKA Arch-Elementalist) took part into this routine. Giving it simpler, shorter combos without the need to stack so much, would turn it into a "Magic Blade Acrobat". Hydra Spells could be the Magic Counterpart to "Double Damage Sword Dance" that BA has access in two skills. Druid could be good for the potential of hitting without having to stop running, but it would need some kind of 1v1 potential to clear bosses faster.

Running: We have Mecha for that, but as said before, even though Mecha is a MDPS, it's not a traditional magic class. Possible runners would be Demon Tamer (I was able to run camp with it, Descending Death could be adjusted for that with a lower cooldown + lifesteal + debuff immunity - such as Demonfire), Druid (if the DOT was % such as Totem or BK). The running change isn't much needed, but would be fun to have diversity here aswell.

 

Maybe people would just appreciate having a simple Mage class again atleast for this. But with those broken swords for BA there isn't really much way to compete with it. Those where mistakes to make and I dont really think they're impactful enough to take them away.

[SmolShibe]

1. So...Im under the impression that mdps is hard to balance for pvp becuz of high raw numbers, is that true?

2. DB seems to do quite nicely in pve when mdps is required, and even shows up in TW occasionally (same for mecha).

if we take 1+2...is it possible to gut the raw numbers on more traditional mage classes without majorly reworking them, then giving them stacking dmg dealt to make them viable, a possible solution?
I honestly dont know wat could improve the situation for traditional mdps, just a thought.

[Reikan]

9 hours ago, SmolShibe said:

1. So...Im under the impression that mdps is hard to balance for pvp becuz of high raw numbers, is that true?

2. DB seems to do quite nicely in pve when mdps is required, and even shows up in TW occasionally (same for mecha).

if we take 1+2...is it possible to gut the raw numbers on more traditional mage classes without majorly reworking them, then giving them stacking dmg dealt to make them viable, a possible solution?
I honestly dont know wat could improve the situation for traditional mdps, just a thought.

Gravity Manipulator is one of the highest issues on MDPS classes because it was always considered a "burst class" and every single rework of it is just going around Feather of Lightness/Darkness. It wouldn't be such of a hassle to balance the MDPS classes if the Gravity had other resources. For me, being both a PVP and a PVE player, I wouldn't care if the "jump and feather" mechanic was taken out entirely. There are other ways of adding a "Gravity" theme in the class, such as the gravity fields/spheres we have to deal with, in the Magician Awaken Quest.

Another point to be considered: Lowering the high raw numbers will just hurt the PVE even further, considering the PDPS classes have +DMG Dealt built in their kits, and that affects the autoattacks too, while in the MDPS classes, all the DMG is dealt by skills, so making them "equal" wouldn't have the same effect

[Jordan]

12 hours ago, SmolShibe said:

1. So...Im under the impression that mdps is hard to balance for pvp becuz of high raw numbers, is that true?

I wouldn't say its this. Whiles it's true the numbers are higher as a base on MDPS i think the main issue would come from the fact that its much easier for PDPS to function as a cohesive unit than it is for MDPS.

So look at it this way. As mentioned in the OP and just to name a few of the main culprits Blade Master, Executioner and Beserker. So if you stack these in a party then they all benefit from -Slash Resistance and -DEF. Similarly you can also tie in the fact that say Asura can ofhand its main weapon and use a sword instead and this is true for a number of PDPS classes. Elements on the other hand are tied to the skill itself so it's very hard for classes to find that teamwork that 100% benefits the situation. Again for example the best kinda setup I can think of off the top of my head is -Dark with Demon Taimer, Demon Summoner, Darkness Blade and Gravity Manipulator (Can throw in a Equi somewhere aswell). But when it comes to other elements it gets more tricky and you end up with half and half where some classes like Equi are more aimed at being a support than an actual DPS. Where as a Beserker with full -Slash gear would be a Support thats doing high damage aswell. You also gotta factor in that when you use a PDPS class most of them will get off 2 Auto Attacks between skills with max attack speed. So that can factor in such as proc's for overall better consistance between procs and also the extra damage those attacks might cause. This was one area where DEF was suppose to counter but ultimately has somewhat became less relevant as time goes on.

Making party setup's is how the game is played these days and people care more about having the best possible output of damage than just making a party. So if a party is doing a boss and theres no restrictions they will use the best possible setup to do it. Like I'm pretty sure you match damage or atleast be close to the same damage using GM and EXE on there own. But what do the classes around these two have to offer? Does a BM match an Equi?

So I don't think it's as simple as toning down the numbers and increasing the consistancy.

 

My logic would likely be to buff the classes that people see as support bots like Equi and make them more threatening without going overkill and ruining them in PvP. This could be one aspect to increasing the power of them but ultimately this discussion basically turns into. Well whats better a BM, EXE and Asura party or a GM, Equi and DS party? And until it flips to the MDPS varient then the PvE just generally will be uneffected. Because the end of the day people care more for what they think is better than experimenting with whats better and if you are an MDPS player joining a party then people will kinda just whine if your playing MDPS even if your MDPS class can deal as much as your EXE could. So although we can look into improvements I just wouldn't get your hopes up as most people end up being sheeps and copy what the top parties are doing without knowing why they do it.

 

3 hours ago, Reikan said:

Gravity Manipulator is one of the highest issues on MDPS classes because it was always considered a "burst class" and every single rework of it is just going around Feather of Lightness/Darkness. It wouldn't be such of a hassle to balance the MDPS classes if the Gravity had other resources. For me, being both a PVP and a PVE player, I wouldn't care if the "jump and feather" mechanic was taken out entirely. There are other ways of adding a "Gravity" theme in the class, such as the gravity fields/spheres we have to deal with, in the Magician Awaken Quest.

I disagree with this as this kinda proves the issue your trying to discuss. Gravity Manipulator is the center of dicussion but thats the problem is it not. Where with PDPS you can say well BA/BK is good for AoE clearing and BM and EXE are good for single target clearing most people will lock on that GM is good at Single Target and Mechas good at AoE. GM shouldn't be the only class up for dicussion. Think of it as a tier list between MDPS and PDPS. How many PDPS classes are in the S Tiers and A Tiers and how many MDPS are in the S Tiers and A Tiers (PvE Limited). You'd probebly find a lot more pdps classes are even and in the higher tiers than in the MDPS equivilent. I honeslty don't think there is much wrong with GM, I personally think theres something wrong with everything else. I've made the arguement that some other classes can do damage but what about the rest of them. Right now theres only a handful of MDPS parties that can come close to matching a PDPS party. Mainly the -Dark one mentioned earlier.

I think the overall problem is somewhat of a fundamental problem with the game. It's always been present as mentioned on Classic which at the time was 65 cap which people would argue is prime time for MDPS PvE. You had the people speed running the dungeons on PDPS parties. This is recent and not something that happened years ago although as mentioned it was happening years ago on PlayEden (Just a fact). So I think yeh we could just start adding PvE DMG or adding more resistances to PDPS classes in PvE but ultimately unless you reach that point where the MDPS side of the scale tips the balance I still think most parties will be like "Eww, Why are you on an MDPS it's very bad". Mindset of the community is a big factor in the discussion too. I love MDPS classes and if I was playing I'd likely be playing one but it doesn't really change the facts.

[Reikan]

11 hours ago, Jordan said:

Mindset of the community is a big factor in the discussion too. I love MDPS classes and if I was playing I'd likely be playing one but it doesn't really change the facts.

Not wanting to single out all you said in the topic, but you were totally reasonable so I don't see a point to reply to your other statements. I agree with them 100%.

I took this part out just to point that I'm one of these players that enjoy testing things, and as soon as I stepped back into the game, I tested a lot of things around from my own old geared MDPS classes and a lot has changed. Time spent doing Palaces went 2 mins higher just from the nerfs/reworks. Of course, they were meant to balance the fact that we have more DMG provenient from new gears, but why doesn't that happen on PDPS classes? I understand if it's from a PVP powercreep factor, but we should at least get the PVE DMG back from some source.

Back when I was active playing on my guild, we often used Dark and Fire parties for PVE, just for sake of testing and having fun. It was still not optimal compared to PDPS, but they were at least capable of doing the content, which is not happening anymore because the MDPS classes are just "forced" into content instead of being adjusted into it. That's why this topic was made in the first place.

[Jordan]

8 hours ago, Reikan said:

Not wanting to single out all you said in the topic, but you were totally reasonable so I don't see a point to reply to your other statements. I agree with them 100%.

I took this part out just to point that I'm one of these players that enjoy testing things, and as soon as I stepped back into the game, I tested a lot of things around from my own old geared MDPS classes and a lot has changed. Time spent doing Palaces went 2 mins higher just from the nerfs/reworks. Of course, they were meant to balance the fact that we have more DMG provenient from new gears, but why doesn't that happen on PDPS classes? I understand if it's from a PVP powercreep factor, but we should at least get the PVE DMG back from some source.

Back when I was active playing on my guild, we often used Dark and Fire parties for PVE, just for sake of testing and having fun. It was still not optimal compared to PDPS, but they were at least capable of doing the content, which is not happening anymore because the MDPS classes are just "forced" into content instead of being adjusted into it. That's why this topic was made in the first place.

I'm not sure what change has effected this?

Unless I'm missing something but Mecha itself has only been changed on Patch v60. And in that update the only thing that was changed was the removal of stun for -Move SPD and the Silence duration on Total Anni was reduced. If anything it was given more damage as the Base Skills M-ATK was increased. Then before that was Patch v40 where again it was given more DMG in the form of extra KP.

Then if you're running on GM then the only thing i can see effecting time is the fact that stacks are now no longer unlimited. So you have to remember to keep up your stacks. 

Maybe I'm missing something but again do you have any suggestions on what can fix this issue?

[Reikan]

42 minutes ago, Jordan said:

I'm not sure what change has effected this?

Unless I'm missing something but Mecha itself has only been changed on Patch v60. And in that update the only thing that was changed was the removal of stun for -Move SPD and the Silence duration on Total Anni was reduced. If anything it was given more damage as the Base Skills M-ATK was increased. Then before that was Patch v40 where again it was given more DMG in the form of extra KP.

Then if you're running on GM then the only thing i can see effecting time is the fact that stacks are now no longer unlimited. So you have to remember to keep up your stacks. 

Maybe I'm missing something but again do you have any suggestions on what can fix this issue?

Running as GM. We spend 2 more minutes managing stacks (using the stack skill in frames where we should be targetting creatures) and targetting creatures to aggro with Tornado Wings. The big corridors where mobs are far from each other were simply aggroed by Lightning Web + Knockup + Gravitation Slam, now we only have 2 of them, which creates an empty hole on the loop. It's a small difference, but in the long run, each detail adds up to the completion time. 

I didn't even mention how the GM Healing is now uneffective at PVE. Using the stack skill, doing 2 dashes and then having to use it again because all your stacks are gone and now you can't really DPS anything... makes you lose even more time.

One might argue that GM isn't a running class and I should just swap to Mecha, but the reason why I mention this change was exactly to ask why is only GM the target of such adjustments every time we get new items, and why none of the PDPS classes suffer the same fate.

[Jordan]

51 minutes ago, Reikan said:

One might argue that GM isn't a running class and I should just swap to Mecha, but the reason why I mention this change was exactly to ask why is only GM the target of such adjustments every time we get new items, and why none of the PDPS classes suffer the same fate.

Well this wasn't the case. This was done as part of a rebalance patch and was done for PvP Health. It wasn't so much to do with new items it was just necessary at the time. Since I didn't want to take away more damage from it but at the same time it was too forgiving to play. This isn't something against the class just rather something that at the time atleast, needed to be done.

More information on changes here:

Yes more could have been done to say Executioner but at this moment in time, this was right at the start of when it started to become the normal class that people PvE on. So it was somewhat hard to judge at this time whether or not changes needed to be made.

However, this to me sounds more like you want to play a Magic class in PvE for atleast dungeon running and from the way you talk about Mecha it's not quite what you are looking for which I agree somewhat. Maybe you'd be more interested in a possible rework of something like Arch-Elementalist or something aimed at another staff/grim using class. I've been thinking a fair bit about it the past few days myself since this topic was made but I haven't actually sat down and looked at each skill myself yet to see what should be done. Maybe you have something to add to this?