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life worshipper rant


warbeast667

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out of all the healer classes i've played this is essentially the red headed step child. here is some of the reason why i think lw is terrible as a solo class

  • all skills have a lower base heal than cure
  • all healing skills have a 5 cd (if you're not counting the heal over time on the hp buff)
  • has no aoe cleanse
  • unless paired with an ed the buffs it provides usually get out classed
  • is a 2h healer so it's actually the squishiest healer due to no access to blocking if they want to use their skills

the only saving grace this thing has is soul chaser song and the proc effects of it's weapon type has

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Not to mention the hp buff doesnt refresh LOL, it only lets u apply again when the duration of 20 full mins is over, its the only 10+ minutes long duration healer buff that behaves like this.
Its holy skill only counters sleep, a debuff that only exists only on necklaces at 1%, since nobody plays Time Mani.

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I like LW enough, yes some things are a pity, that it is not tanky enough, or that it is not debuff, but it is only a support, not a pure heal. I like to use it in PvP, or against Karen, and with the 115 set, I tried to buff it a bit with the Requiem set. (This is purely my opinion as a player, but the LW is fine as it is)

Also, I manage to heal correctly, I have the time to put all the buffs + the Holy skill during the skills cd (while I cast instant)

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w8 karen sleep doesn't go through immunities like every other hoo boss? now try healing on lw against something that isn't a brick wall. i been trying to like lw but i also hate having to go all out on gearing this thing to be the side character of any other healer that just slapped on an orange 108 healing set and using lvl95 mace,rapier/shield combo

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17 hours ago, warbeast667 said:
  • all skills have a lower base heal than cure

So does adjudicator's Light of Truth. What Cure doesn't have is KP that gives it more healing so overall each skill of Life Worshipper should heal more than a cure. Just like Light of Truth.

17 hours ago, warbeast667 said:
  • all healing skills have a 5 cd (if you're not counting the heal over time on the hp buff)

Yes but how much more utillity does the class provide with its heals? Battle Hymn at level 100 grants the party 11.5k P-ATK while healing them too. The primary use of a Bard on Eden atleast was as a buffer support not a healer, even before I reworked every class if you said you where building a healing Life Worshipper people would call you stupid. Now it's quite capable of healing as for the most part it has a rotation of skills to use, yes maybe it wouldn't be your primary party healer but it's not useless either.

17 hours ago, warbeast667 said:
  • has no aoe cleanse

Yes because not everything has to be the exact same. And quite honestly you could pair it up with pretty much any other healing class in the game and have a decent amount of debuff removal coverage. Especially if you use the new Abyss set that gives Battle Hymn debuff removal.

17 hours ago, warbeast667 said:
  • unless paired with an ed the buffs it provides usually get out classed

Yes but if it's buffs where so good that it wasn't out classed then if we didn't nerf the healing then the class would be broken. You can't be the best buffer in the world and still a good healer.

17 hours ago, warbeast667 said:
  • is a 2h healer so it's actually the squishiest healer due to no access to blocking if they want to use their skills

It gets DMG reduction from its buffs. But again if you give it too much DMG reduction to the point where it matches block then again like what's it guna suck at?

 

A lot of this seems more to do with it's not a primary healer like something such as Adjudicator or Glacier Knight. However, I've saw many instances especially in PvP where people will run a Life Worshipper as their secondary healer. Yes maybe something like a Holy Sage is more preferable because of its Anti-CC and stuff but you can't just have every class in the game be identical asside from maybe the weapon they use or the effect the skill plays.

9 hours ago, SmolShibe said:

Not to mention the hp buff doesnt refresh LOL, it only lets u apply again when the duration of 20 full mins is over, its the only 10+ minutes long duration healer buff that behaves like this.
Its holy skill only counters sleep, a debuff that only exists only on necklaces at 1%, since nobody plays Time Mani.

Ever considered that it's a bug and not something intentional?

Eitherway thanks for letting me know.

---

Atleast for PvP. Anyone who says Life Worshipper isn't a good class especially paired with the Requiem Set needs to head to Sakura and test more classes. Because I can assure you in that regard you are wrong. As for PvE... well anyone with Totem Master unlocked can heal most things and the things that aren't that simple (DS, HoO, Abyss) well someone with a decently built healer can heal on most classes fine and again Totem Master wins again due to just having to press a button and putt down -Res totems.

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12 minutes ago, Jordan said:

So does adjudicator's Light of Truth. What Cure doesn't have is KP that gives it more healing so overall each skill of Life Worshipper should heal more than a cure. Just like Light of Truth.

18 hours ago, warbeast667 said:

yeah but this thing heals %hp after so many cast and doesn't have a cd

12 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Yes but how much more utillity does the class provide with its heals? Battle Hymn at level 100 grants the party 11.5k P-ATK while healing them too. The primary use of a Bard on Eden atleast was as a buffer support not a healer, even before I reworked every class if you said you where building a healing Life Worshipper people would call you stupid. Now it's quite capable of healing as for the most part it has a rotation of skills to use, yes maybe it wouldn't be your primary party healer but it's not useless either.

totem surge on any dps above 100k atk provides 30k atk when the totem with it lives near them

11 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Yes but if it's buffs where so good that it wasn't out classed then if we didn't nerf the healing then the class would be broken. You can't be the best buffer in the world and still a good healer

i don't mind the healing being that low when it's tied to buffs but when it has a somewhat high cd for something that's important for keeping people alive that isn't a full restore like soul chaser song (tbh my main complaint about the class is specifically this)

20 minutes ago, Jordan said:

Atleast for PvP. Anyone who says Life Worshipper isn't a good class especially paired with the Requiem Set needs to head to Sakura and test more classes. Because I can assure you in that regard you are wrong.

tbh it has nice buffs for pvp since you're constantly moving and pvp teams being big enough to throw in ed but with how many people run double cale or xtal frag with conju holy skill, master fencer buff eating combo (normal and holy skill one), and angel of justic aura (which tbh might work well in this meta due to the rise of def seal paladin in pvp) you don't get to keep them long ._.

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31 minutes ago, warbeast667 said:

yeah but this thing heals %hp after so many cast and doesn't have a cd

That still doesn't really mean anything to the original point of cure having more points on the skill than the LW skills.

 

32 minutes ago, warbeast667 said:

totem surge on any dps above 100k atk provides 30k atk when the totem with it lives near them

Yeh but you're also factoring that the LW skill has a 5 second cooldown vs the 40 seconds on Totem Surge for a 5 second duration difference that is easily negligible to the fact that the cooldown is as mentioned 5 seconds.

 

35 minutes ago, warbeast667 said:

i don't mind the healing being that low when it's tied to buffs but when it has a somewhat high cd for something that's important for keeping people alive that isn't a full restore like soul chaser song (tbh my main complaint about the class is specifically this)

The whole purpose of the LW is to encourage the LW to time their skills better. Rather than being brain dead on Adjudicator spamming 1 key over and over with the occasional buff press there isn't really much to the class. Where as with the cooldown timers it widens the gap between a LW whos just button mashing and a LW that's saving their heals for when the healer gets CC'd or something of that nature. Not every class has to be a brain dead spam fest.

There is also the fact that as I mentioned it's not really a "Healer" in the general sense. It's a Healer/Support Hybrid where it can do both. As you mentioned the Soul Chaser on its own is an incredible buff. People back on Main Server and on VGN before the rework would use this class solely for this skill regardless of its other skills. Now it can heal really well and it can give some very decent stat buffs. And yeh maybe it's buffs aren't as strong as other classes or it's heals aren't as spammable. But other than Holy Sage I don't really see any other class that can do what LW does to the same degree or better.

 

41 minutes ago, warbeast667 said:

tbh it has nice buffs for pvp since you're constantly moving and pvp teams being big enough to throw in ed but with how many people run double cale or xtal frag with conju holy skill, master fencer buff eating combo (normal and holy skill one), and angel of justic aura (which tbh might work well in this meta due to the rise of def seal paladin in pvp) you don't get to keep them long ._.

For every arguement like this there is also a counter arguement. You could say due to every running double cale and things of that nature that a LW is even more useful just because it can give the party luxury buffs that could help classes that rely on buffs more than others to have less of a chance of losing those more important buffs. In the same manner that people still stack things like Broken Shell and Gun to help prevent healers clensing the deadly debuffs.

Yes you should always factor in the meta in balance changes etc but you cannot base everything thats good or bad about a class just because what's meta right now counters it.

 

Overall if I was to make a tier list LW would not be in any of the bottom tiers to where I'd consider it "Useless". It's got its place and is completely playable in its current state. Yes maybe the buffs could be improved a little value wise to make it more competative to being one of the better supports but we're not out here to make it the main healer of a party when thats just not what it's designed to be. It functions perfectly fine as a secondary healer especially alongside something like an Adjudicator that because of it's Cloth Armor it's rather squishy giving a lot of value to Soul Chaser.

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The issue with using LW in HoO,  is that it is still not better.

I prefer using Adju on Phantom/Cale/Alice/Phoenix, becuz adju is the only class that gives a neutral debuff that helps pdps, meanwhile u have 5x hp in HoO, so u can just put on the awkn guitar and spam mainly debuff/cleanse with only the occasional heal.

This applies even to Karen since a good pt will be able to cc her consistently, and a not-so-good pt will struggle to deal dmg far more than they are concerned with bp, so a strong pt can use either adju/TM (maybe even adju better), and a weak pt will need TM just to kill the tigers fast enuf anyway.

And yes, TM is good for most other bosses, as long as ur dps knows to stand on top of u, so u can use Cure spam to keep the totem alive to maintain the Surge buff, for its full duration, instead of having the totem being obliterated by some bosses 5 seconds in.

So with all of that, I now legitimately see no reason to use LW anywhere except maybe Kiriyata in 110T? again, tho, a high dmg pt can just melt her hp bar, and most noob pts dont even know of using LW for Kiri, or survive Kiri as LW.

Im cool with not touching this class at all, but there is no scenario where it is competent in PvE, and in large scale PvP (where LW is supposed to be good) u only ever see BP/TM/HS anyway.

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3 hours ago, SmolShibe said:

The issue with using LW in HoO,  is that it is still not better.

I prefer using Adju on Phantom/Cale/Alice/Phoenix, becuz adju is the only class that gives a neutral debuff that helps pdps, meanwhile u have 5x hp in HoO, so u can just put on the awkn guitar and spam mainly debuff/cleanse with only the occasional heal.

This applies even to Karen since a good pt will be able to cc her consistently, and a not-so-good pt will struggle to deal dmg far more than they are concerned with bp, so a strong pt can use either adju/TM (maybe even adju better), and a weak pt will need TM just to kill the tigers fast enuf anyway.

And yes, TM is good for most other bosses, as long as ur dps knows to stand on top of u, so u can use Cure spam to keep the totem alive to maintain the Surge buff, for its full duration, instead of having the totem being obliterated by some bosses 5 seconds in.

So with all of that, I now legitimately see no reason to use LW anywhere except maybe Kiriyata in 110T? again, tho, a high dmg pt can just melt her hp bar, and most noob pts dont even know of using LW for Kiri, or survive Kiri as LW.

Im cool with not touching this class at all, but there is no scenario where it is competent in PvE, and in large scale PvP (where LW is supposed to be good) u only ever see BP/TM/HS anyway.

At the end of the day none of the PvE arguements event matter. Even if you buff LW to be better than the others whether it be in healing or in debuff removal or what ever. All it will do is knock another class out (Replace) and then we'd be having the same conversation about that class. Only say the top 5% of players actually select classes to use in PvE and then just follow suite. Not trying to discredit any of your statements cause because I mean your probably right, LW isn't as good as an Adju or a TM. But pretty much everything said in the original post wont change anything you said. You'd still pick Adju over LW and you still would pick TM over LW. The only way that would change is if you gave LW -resistance debuffs and then like I mentioned above, the same arguement would apply "Why pick TM is LW does more -resistance".

I've had this conversation with one of the better healer players in the server before who made all these points or similar points in a ticket about healing classes back when all the GK nerfs came in. And as I trust them as I've known them since I was a player (They even healed my party in GVG), I let them join me on a test environment so they had all the resources needed to be "fully geared" on every healer class and then let her see for herself that if you gear a class to the same degree as the "meta" classes. Then there is not really any difference between x class and y class other than preferance and some slight "preferable" utility. Then after all the testing she had nothing really to suggest other than people really need to just try more classes and druid would be a playable healer without its animation delays.

Please note the above paragraph is specific to healing classes (In particular, Adju, LW, TM, Druid, GK, Paladin). Although Holy Sage is a healing class you'd never really play it for the healing aspect so it was not included if I remember correctly.

As for the PVP footnote. I would add that I'd likely pick HS over LW due to its Anti-CC. But depending on what I'm doing depends on if I would pick TM or LW. As TM is good for more stand your ground sort of instances where as LW is better for more move and attack instances. So if a TW is very cap oriented LW every day, same with a GVG. If the TW or GVG is very evenly matched and you need to stand your ground. Then TM every day. As for BP I'm not sure why that was brought up as BP would be a DPS classes and not a support / healer.

Eitherway you look at it, it should always be better to run a party with 3 unique supports rather than before where you had 2 GK's + x class or 2 Adju's + y class. Although I bet people still do...

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On 5/1/2021 at 7:03 AM, Jordan said:

So does adjudicator's Light of Truth. What Cure doesn't have is KP that gives it more healing so overall each skill of Life Worshipper should heal more than a cure. Just like Light of Truth.

Having tested this (in the new 115 set, with a few different trophy combinations), Cure consistently outheals any of the LW skills with max KP in all of them. That includes Forceful Rhythm, the skill that gets the most KP for skill healing, as well as the skill that's buffed from the set by 7%. In fact, Forceful Rhythm doesn't even heal the highest out of the LW skills, not even counting Cure.

Also having tested the 115 set in PvP (and probably being one of, if not the only person to do so), the debuff removal is extremely negligible and somewhat irrelevant when 10 (if not more) debuffs get stacked every second currently. Losing the insane damage reduction the 110 set provides hurts a lot as well.

On 5/1/2021 at 8:16 AM, Jordan said:

Overall if I was to make a tier list LW would not be in any of the bottom tiers to where I'd consider it "Useless".

(PvP Only)
S+ Tier (broken): Seal of Defense Paladin
S Tier (top tier healers): Glacier Knight, Holy Sage
A Tier (solid, 3rd/4th slot healers): Adjudicator, Seal of Light Paladin
B Tier (niche, situational): Totem Master, Life Worshipper
C Tier (no.): Druid

As with all tier lists, my personal opinion. Agreed upon by someone I consider one of the best healers in the game tho.

On 5/1/2021 at 2:59 PM, Jordan said:

As for the PVP footnote. I would add that I'd likely pick HS over LW due to its Anti-CC. But depending on what I'm doing depends on if I would pick TM or LW. As TM is good for more stand your ground sort of instances where as LW is better for more move and attack instances. So if a TW is very cap oriented LW every day, same with a GVG. If the TW or GVG is very evenly matched and you need to stand your ground. Then TM every day. As for BP I'm not sure why that was brought up as BP would be a DPS classes and not a support / healer.

Eitherway you look at it, it should always be better to run a party with 3 unique supports rather than before where you had 2 GK's + x class or 2 Adju's + y class. Although I bet people still do...

Currently if running 3 supports, 99% of PvP parties will run GK + HS + Paladin/Adju. If there's a 4th, it'll be whatever isn't played between Adju/Paladin. LW/TM are just not on the same level as others in the priority list for healers. I feel like most guilds would sooner run a second Adju/HS than run a LW or TM in a party to fight. Personally I love LW and think it's a bit underrated, only reason I built it and actually tried to make it work in PvP. I think it's better than people give it credit for, but still underwhelming compared to just about any other healer besides Druid. I love the synergy it has with an ED though, it's super fun to play.

 

Either way, just wanted to explain results that I have personally experienced from playing the class that disagree with some of the statements made. I think Life Worshipper is much weaker in all forms of content compared to other healers be it PvE or PvP, but not as weak as people think it is. I agree that it's outclassed unless paired with an ED, at which point might warrant it as a 4th support/healer slot if there's room for it in your current party setup. Even then though it's highly debatable and probably more up to preference/need for a specific utility. I think it could be tuned a little higher, but not in terms of healing output or debuff removal, contrary to other opinions here. As someone who loves the theme of the class and what it actually provides, I would like to see the support utility buffed if anything were to be. Make the buffs strong enough to make it comparable to the typical 3rd/4th slot healers like Adju/Paladin. Just my two cents. o/

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On 5/3/2021 at 8:16 AM, Rin said:

Also having tested the 115 set in PvP (and probably being one of, if not the only person to do so), the debuff removal is extremely negligible and somewhat irrelevant when 10 (if not more) debuffs get stacked every second currently. Losing the insane damage reduction the 110 set provides hurts a lot as well.

I mean that arguement can be made for pretty much every class other than the Holy Sage and Glacier Knight. Something is better than nothing and quite honestly part of the point made was that if paired with something like an Adjudicator you'd be able to throw in more Purifying Waters as you have extra healing support.

On 5/3/2021 at 8:16 AM, Rin said:

Having tested this (in the new 115 set, with a few different trophy combinations), Cure consistently outheals any of the LW skills with max KP in all of them. That includes Forceful Rhythm, the skill that gets the most KP for skill healing, as well as the skill that's buffed from the set by 7%. In fact, Forceful Rhythm doesn't even heal the highest out of the LW skills, not even counting Cure.

Maybe now looking back at it. The Angel's Blessing Glyph does give 10% on Cure so that could be a factor of why it heals more vs the KP as the base heal is already higher. I completely forgot that was a think and only checked it now.

 

Just on a personal note then since you say you've played it in the current meta. What sort of buff changes would you recommend to altar that doesn't turn it into a second version of one of the current supports.

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5 hours ago, Jordan said:

quite honestly part of the point made was that if paired with something like an Adjudicator you'd be able to throw in more Purifying Waters as you have extra healing support.

I understand your point, but my point throughout the post was there generally isn't room for a LW and an Adju because of how solid and locked in the top 3 healers are, and there's not much of a reason to run a LW for the 4th slot (if even running a 4th healer) when you can run an Adju, since the meta is so debuff/CC heavy.
 

5 hours ago, Jordan said:

Just on a personal note then since you say you've played it in the current meta. What sort of buff changes would you recommend to altar that doesn't turn it into a second version of one of the current supports.

Tbh I don't know if it really needs much (though it does need something). If the meta shifted to PDPS, I think LW/ED would be much stronger. Currently the meta is stacking extreme amounts of debuffs, CC and res drops for MDPS to nuke (most parties are 2-3 AEs + maybe a mecha for DPS). It's like -50 to 70 fire res, -30-50 lightning res in 1-2 seconds if you're being focused, and that isn't really an exaggeration. If I were to suggest buffs for Life Worshipper, it would be to change some of the buffs to better fit the meta via something like damage reduction, and improve upon its synergies with ED.

  • Song of Light: Increases all allies within 50 meters P-CRIT Rate +5%.

Crit rate is honestly pretty useless as a buff. The role of PDPS in PvP atm is CC and cappers, and with the stats we have now, they'll all cap crit rate on their own easily. I would change this to either -5% DMG taken or party-wide debuff removal similar to Shielder (which might push it too close to the other current supports I suppose), or if anything +10 elemental resistances to act as a little band-aid against res drop stacking.

  • Song of Life: Additionally recovers HP of your party members within 40 meters +2136 for 15 seconds.

Effectively useless to cast after giving the party the HP buff. You'll probably do it anyway as a filler, but it doesn't feel good to use. This could be changed to something like a 5% HP per second heal, like half of what the awakened guitars do. If that's too strong on it's own in your opinion, you could lock it behind the Suite Concert KP that doubles the healing for Song of Life.

  • Melody of Protection (holy skill): ... While "Poets Armor" is active you will receive M-DMG Taken -1176 pts and DEF +10572.

M-DMG Taken from this at level 120 is less than a third of a trophy proc. Would like to see it increased a bit. Doesn't have to match a trophy since it's effectively a permanent buff, but maybe 2k would be nice and feel more impactful. I don't think I would make the same change to the P-DMG variant (the other holy skill "Sleep is for the Weak") because I believe PDPS is much more affected by flat damage reduction than MDPS.

 

After that, I would probably build on the synergy it has with Elegant Dancer. Maybe a bit personal bias from me, but I love love love the whole idea behind two classes synergizing together through skills. Sadly both classes are weak on their own, and the effects increased by them being together typically don't warrant it over other classes (we've tried). I would like to see them at least worth being considered. 

  • Combining both toggles giving -X% DMG taken instead of the P-CRIT Rate and M-CRIT Rate.
  • I guess side change for Elegant Dancer, I think Dance Force when combined with LW's Forceful Rhythm should give M-ATK% instead of P-ATK% since LW gives P-ATK% as well. It would help running both of them be more viable in both PDPS and MDPS comps.

 

Final notes, overall I don't think the class needs too many changes. It's not weak, it just doesn't fit the meta currently. It would benefit from some kind of -X% DMG taken for the party (or -X% M-DMG taken at least), and the synergies with ED can be improved on to increase viability for both. As said in my first post here, I think Life Worshipper is underrated and can still function in PvP, and people do still play it from time to time. Again, in a PDPS meta, the value it currently brings is much stronger and this thread probably wouldn't even exist. That just isn't where we're at atm. The main thing I would like to see is the replacement of stats that aren't as useful with the amount of stats we currently get (like the crit rate buffs) for more important stats, and the regen changed to a %HP regen to actually be worth using, even if it's only changed to that through the KP.

P.S. Sorry for really long post, I didn't expect it to be this long. >_> I just wanted to explain my thought process behind each suggestion made. I want to state that I don't expect these changes to happen just because I suggested them. If we really want to complain about a class though, it should be something that has NEVER been good in any form of content, like Rakshasa. Rework Rakshasa to something closer towards a PDPS version of the current AE and PDPS might actually have a place outside of capping. Different story for a different time though.

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1 hour ago, Rin said:

If we really want to complain about a class though, it should be something that has NEVER been good in any form of content, like Rakshasa. Rework Rakshasa to something closer towards a PDPS version of the current AE

yeah rakshas bad as well but pls no thunder elemental treatment i don't want to be taking a 600k crit in strike dmg instead of thunder dmg on def seal paladin ._.

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9 hours ago, warbeast667 said:

yeah rakshas bad as well but pls no thunder elemental treatment i don't want to be taking a 600k crit in strike dmg instead of thunder dmg on def seal paladin ._.

Rework might have been the wrong word. I really think just a few QoL changes would go a long way for it. Again though, another story for another thread. Don't wanna derail the Life Worshipper thread. 😔

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tbh a change i want to see on lw if we keeping up the dynamic with ed & lw combo is have their holy skills have some interactions like with dance blessing if someone uses poem of protection they also get 10% m-dmg reduction but idk if that would be too over bearing

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