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Whipper is a toxic class


Versteckt
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@QueenPepper My comments were not directed directly at you but in general. However that type of attitude saying that if anything happens it wont be nice isn't called for. I agree I do not think anything should be majorly modified in regards to the WH myself either, but there isn't a lot you personally could do to stop or help anything of the sort happen. So if there was an idle threat of it won't be nice doesn't solve anything here. It is just negativity in general. If someone has an opinion on what is wrong, then the best course is to debate and negate that opinion with your observations or opinions. It is always taken more seriously if you can point out the flaws in someone's observations with your own, than it is to just to argue, fuss and fight about it. Since you are a WH and honestly one of the best and longest playing ones right now, your valid data and opinion on this is something that would be taken more seriously if you do it in a positive and non attack based stance is what I am getting at.

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Could you please give me the option to block someone from my topic? (with the exception of moderators ofc) because as I said in the text myself, I am willing to have a discussion with anyone, and all my responses until then were educated even when the raised point was 4head.

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@Versteckt While that sounds like a good idea. It would be discriminatory to do that and cut out a possible voice on the subject. I just suggest we attempt to remain calm and not let anyone get to us in order to maintain a healthy discussion. Turn the other cheek I guess they say lol.

 

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27 minutes ago, Jade said:

@QueenPepper My comments were not directed directly at you but in general. However that type of attitude saying that if anything happens it wont be nice isn't called for. I agree I do not think anything should be majorly modified in regards to the WH myself either, but there isn't a lot you personally could do to stop or help anything of the sort happen. So if there was an idle threat of it won't be nice doesn't solve anything here. It is just negativity in general. If someone has an opinion on what is wrong, then the best course is to debate and negate that opinion with your observations or opinions. It is always taken more seriously if you can point out the flaws in someone's observations with your own, than it is to just to argue, fuss and fight about it. Since you are a WH and honestly one of the best and longest playing ones right now, your valid data and opinion on this is something that would be taken more seriously if you do it in a positive and non attack based stance is what I am getting at.

it's not personal ok and i'm not trying to be disrespectful or rude.. but i'm sick tired off ppl complaining about we wh's.. this is the third time this topic has come up, that's how this game skills get mess up in the first place and can't be fix. right now wh's lv.1 sink n hooker is messed up it have a delay gap in it.. you cannot pull someone with it without getting hit you suppose to get stun automatically when you pull them like sink n hooker lv.2, but hey we have to live with it due to ppl bitching about wh's and force GM's to make a change. idk who you are or what role you play but you need to tell ppl stop complaining play the game and find ways to better themselves that's what i did. ever since i start playing this game from asb time or i should say 5yrs ago i never once file a complain on game web site about classes. i tug it out and find ways to better myself as a person and as a player. it wasn't easy but i never quite on trying to be the best player in the game. complaining is not the answer and it's not going to help you win. changing skills to classes is only going to make things worst you can't please everyone in the game some may like it some may not. no matter what you do to fix classes ppl will not like it. 

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Yes I understand and I agree with you that we need to be cautious what all large scale changes are made. This post you made I am happy to hear your opinion and take on the issues. This is a much better way to deal with it and to respectfully counter the issues. You are correct that we have to live with and adapt to the changes made. Some of the changes are hopefully and usually done with the best intentions, just some have possible side affects. However your statement makes the most sense, that whatever changes are made they are hard at first to adapt to or get used to. People tend to get so stuck in a habit of exactly what they expect and so any change even a minor one is sometimes very difficult to deal with.

Thank you for this post it brings into light some of the issues GS and GM have to deal with in any modifications. Like you said can't please everyone, but striving to keep as many happy is the goal no matter how difficult it is. 

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21 hours ago, ZippyJohnJones said:

Versteckt,

When I began playing this game back in ASB, the Whipper was a crowd control tank with AOE disables. We had weak DPS, and couldn't get many kills, but for those of us willing to play this part, we accepted the trade-off. Since the last level cap change the Whipper has retained some crowd control capabilities, though we had virtually none when we lost our stuns for awhile, but we are no longer a tank class at all. Punishers, like yourself, even when under-geared can burn through a whipper who isn't OP, within 2 or three hits. I have all +10 or above Unique gear, a fully leveled pet, and regular rank 2 jewels. You typically kill me in BG's within 2 hits, 3 with my shields up. There is a lot that is unbalanced at the moment. I hear your concerns and complaints, but it my experience (I have a Punisher too), Whippers are so handicapped already, as compared to PU, that I discourage new players from choosing WH. It's may favorite class, but it is broken... broken to its detriment, though, and not its it's advantage. I know the pulls are a pain. I've been pulled into the FK WH ping pong fest many times myself. Unfortunately, Pulls are one of the only things the whipper still has other than a great booty and perky breasts. 

Remember, when talking about Balance, all classes have a role to play. The whippers only remaining role is crowd control through debuffs and stuns. Once that is taken away, the class becomes useless, and once again you lose players who prefer that class / role. We still haven't gained back some great players who left the last time we messed with the WH class, one of whom didn't even play Whipper. Even though he had been playing since the beginning of Vendetta SB, and had spent considerable time and money on this game, he no longer trusted the game after he saw what happened to the Whippers. 

I suggest that we be very careful about taking anything away without considering what can be given in return. Remember, the whipper is supposed to be "A powerful melee fighter with excellent range, specializing in brutal AoE Skills that shreds her foes". At the moment, the whipper is:

  • A weak melee fighter (barely any DPS to speak of) with 
  • mediocre range and
  • annoying AoE attacks that encourage foes to kill her while she's trying to close because
  • she is soooo sloooowwwww... 

Just something to think about while you're burning lowbies at the RP mobs.

Yuuki

Well, it took me a while to respond, but it was because you raised some interesting points that I would like to answer carefully, let's go.

The first thing I would like to answer is the question you raised about PU being able to kill WH. Well, PU is the class that has the most damage of the game, it's a carry class that can take a team fight if you have peel of your team, and like I said on the topic and it's very clear to analyze the roles of the game, Whipper it should not be the main tanks, this is the role of the DE, but even so she still manages to make the tank work WELL TOO for a class that should not do that and with a minimum of ME peels she can tank an entire party attacking her, and if not even a Punisher should have enough damage to kill a WH, which class should then? You also said that I can knock you down in a combo, but that comparison isn't so fair, since what you insinuated that isn't completely full geared right? I have 2 sets, half of the ancient slots open, almost all unique crit-atk jewels lvl 2 and even so I have difficulties to shutdown some whippers, an undergeared PU simply DOES NOTHING in the current metagame.

In relation to the pulls I think we agree (everyone must feel this mechanic annoying in the game) and maybe the best option would be to ban this type of mechanics from the game, but maybe this is impractical and in a way became a mark of this class, but since the skill has a non-existent risk/reward because it is very easy to apply, how can we reduce the reward? decrease the range of the skill, REMOVE the 3 seconds stun of this skill, after all doesn't make the slightest sense, the enemy is already completely fucked and she has another 300 CCs for that enemy after pulling it right? so why let 3.1 sec stun in this skill? is another thing that does not make sense.

What I could propose for these skills would be as follows ...

Hook and sinker:

Cooldown: 30 / 27 / 24 / 21 / 18 / 15 -> 30 Seconds at all levels

Range: 16 / 18 / 20 / 21 / 22 / 23 -> 17m at all levels

Stun: 1.5 / 1.9 / 2.1 / 2.3 / 2.7 / 3.1

(New passive: "You won't touch my babies" - Now Whipper could pull damaged allies in PvP Zones and remove 1 debuff)

Range of pull on Allies: 20m at all levels.

 

Hook and Sinker II:

Cooldown: 35 / 34 / 33 / 32 / 31 -> 40 seconds at all levels

Range: 15 / 15,5 / 16 / 16,5 / 17 -> 14m range at all levels

Targets AoE: 2 / 3 / 3 / 4 / 4 -> 3 targets at all levels.

Stun: 2 / 2.3 / 2.5 / 2.7 / 2.9

(New passive: "You won't touch my babies" - Now Whipper could pull damaged allies in PvP Zones and remove 1 debuff)

AoE Targets on Allies: 2 / 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 - per level

 

Athena's Hate: 

Range: 20 -> 17

Cooldown: 25 -> 20

I think we would still have to change a lot of things in this class, so it would not be so anti-fun inside the game and it would seriously undermine PvP's health, but that would be a good start.

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9 minutes ago, Jade said:

Yes I understand and I agree with you that we need to be cautious what all large scale changes are made. This post you made I am happy to hear your opinion and take on the issues. This is a much better way to deal with it and to respectfully counter the issues. You are correct that we have to live with and adapt to the changes made. Some of the changes are hopefully and usually done with the best intentions, just some have possible side affects. However your statement makes the most sense, that whatever changes are made they are hard at first to adapt to or get used to. People tend to get so stuck in a habit of exactly what they expect and so any change even a minor one is sometimes very difficult to deal with.

Thank you for this post it brings into light some of the issues GS and GM have to deal with in any modifications. Like you said can't please everyone, but striving to keep as many happy is the goal no matter how difficult it is. 

it only takes one person to start something negative then when you look the who hole situation gets out of control. then all of a sudden an announcement will be made on forum that classes skill will be change. then when you look ppl will be raging. the game it self is in a very difficult spot as we speak ppl who finding fault and complaining and needs to stop it's cancer.. it's a bad influence  sending negative to new players who wants to play the game. ppl just hate to put in effort into themselves and the game nothing comes easy you have to work hard to be the best. no one in this game give me the title that i i'm one of the best players in the game, i had to earn and work very hard to be a great player and and it didn't came over night it took me years of playing and understanding and adapting to whatever the game have to offer. and that goes for  anyone who plays the game.when things do not going the way we want we like to complain and make excesses or quit play the game it don't work like that, that's not how you solve the problem. take what has been given to you and make the best of it that's what i did.when i get knock down i get back up i don't run i face my fares and problems that's how i become one of the best wh's all around and in game.

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13 minutes ago, Versteckt said:

Hook and Sinker:

Cooldown: 30 / 27 / 24 / 21 / 18 / 15 -> 30 Seconds at all levels

Range: 16 / 18 / 20 / 21/ 22 / 23 -> 17 at all levels

Stun: 1,5 / 1,9 / 2,1 / 2,3 / 2,7 / 3,1

(New Passive: "You won't touch my babies" - Now Whipper could pull damaged allies in PvP Zones and remove 1 debuff)

Range of pull on allies: 20 at all levels.

 

Hook and Sinker II:

Same thing of Hook and Sinker, but the passive would pull a lot of allies.

 

Athena's Hate:

Range: 20 -> 17

Cooldown: 25 -> 20

Something similar was done, stuns were removed from pulls and it basically hog tied the Whipper into being unable to do anything. People got pulled sure, but they just walked away unharmed 95% of the time. We can not fully take the stuns away, this just didnt work before and will not work this time. Perhaps as I said before all stun durations need to be revised, but you cant simply take their stuns away. It is the only thing they have in order to keep you near for any time at all to do any real damage. 

Personally speaking if game mechanics allowed (which a lot is source controlled) the best mechanic would be a check to see if you are stunned and wouldn't allow a new stun to apply on top of essentially extending to your stun length for a period of time after last stun duration. Sadly a lot of this is out of our control due to source code. So deleting a whipper stun just isn't a solution that will work as it has been done before.

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10 hours ago, Jade said:

Something similar was done, stuns were removed from pulls and it basically hog tied the Whipper into being unable to do anything. People got pulled sure, but they just walked away unharmed 95% of the time. We can not fully take the stuns away, this just didn't work before and will not work this time. Perhaps as I said before all stun durations need to be revised, but you cant simply take their stuns away. It is the only thing they have in order to keep you near for any time at all to do any real damage. 

Personally speaking if game mechanics allowed (which a lot is source controlled) the best mechanic would be a check to see if you are stunned and wouldn't allow a new stun to apply on top of essentially extending to your stun length for a period of time after last stun duration. Sadly a lot of this is out of our control due to source code. So deleting a whipper stun just isn't a solution that will work as it has been done before.

Right, @Jade, if the stuns go then the Whipper is just pulling people closer to have a better chance of dying by their hand.

"Get over here and kill me please".

I think before we start messing with any one classes skill set, which tends to cause people to rage quit or just plain rage, perhaps we may be better served by looking at the balance of defensive gears / passive defense of all classes vs. the damage buffs / passive damage / piercing of all classes. I think what gives people such a frustrated and possibly distorted view of PvP is the fact that most endgame PvP encounters are decided in seconds and many in fractions of a second. If the survivability (I'm making that a word even though spell check says it isn't one) of all classes were to come up slightly, then we might be able to get a better handle on the skills that might require adjustment down the line. 

@VerstecktYou make a good point that the PU's job is long range DPS and they're supposed to be able to burn a Whipper quickly. Fine, it's also a Whipper's job to pull and stun and disable (crowd control). Yes, I'm sure it's very frustrating for you if I pull you off of a crate with Hook and Sinker II and stun you so an SE on my team can burn you, but it's equally frustrating to me when you stunlock me on my bike with Mighty Impact and an SW on your team walks by and calmly kills me before I can even get off my bike. It's frustrating but well played. That's called playing your class.

I contend we should look at the survivability of everyone overall first and individual class skills second. I don't have numbers or any of that. I don't math well. This is just my feeling / opinion. I leave it to the GM's and GS's who know the game much much better than I do to make sense of my aimless rambling. ?

 

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2 hours ago, Filomena said:

Well, the game go on with try and error: remove the stun was a bad idea. What about reduce a bit the pull range. For example, put the pull skills to 16 or 18 meters and see what's happens.

Could be worth reducing the pull range a bit just to see how it goes

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5 hours ago, monoki said:

Could be worth reducing the pull range a bit just to see how it goes

this is still not going to solve the problem... it's going to cause more harm than good.. every class has a stun lock combo rotation beside Medics.. the thing is Versteckt complaining to dammn much.. he saying those skills should reduce from wh's what about punishers why isn't he talking about how much opt damage they have and need to nurf big time huh how about that.. Punishers have way too much crit-atk opt burts lets reduce thier dps and crit-atk by 35- 40% and lets see how he feels about that if yall going to mess wh skills up again. you ppl just like things to easy. wh's have the least dps atk but yet they still complaining about how broken we are thats bull crap. it takes wh's a long time to kill a person. a punisher cb and sw can kill in less that 5sec.. wh's can never do that so why all the hate against whippers. every whipper in game is play and build different.. like i say this all started when Versteckt couldn't have his way with me so now he is crying..if yall thinking  about making changes to wh's skill fine but when yall do make the changes make sure yall reduce the damage and crit-atk on pu's because i don't see anyone on this thread talking about making changes to punishers.. and one last thing when you guys make changes to wh's ppl with the opposite class is still going to raging about wh's.

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1 hour ago, QueenPepper said:

this is still not going to solve the problem... it's going to cause more harm than good.. every class has a stun lock combo rotation beside Medics.. the thing is Versteckt complaining to dammn much.. he saying those skills should reduce from wh's what about punishers why isn't he talking about how much opt damage they have and need to nurf big time huh how about that.. Punishers have way too much crit-atk opt burts lets reduce thier dps and crit-atk by 35- 40% and lets see how he feels about that if yall going to mess wh skills up again. you ppl just like things to easy. wh's have the least dps atk but yet they still complaining about how broken we are thats bull crap. it takes wh's a long time to kill a person. a punisher cb and sw can kill in less that 5sec.. wh's can never do that so why all the hate against whippers. every whipper in game is play and build different.. like i say this all started when Versteckt couldn't have his way with me so now he is crying..if yall thinking  about making changes to wh's skill fine but when yall do make the changes make sure yall reduce the damage and crit-atk on pu's because i don't see anyone on this thread talking about making changes to punishers.. and one last thing when you guys make changes to wh's ppl with the opposite class is still going to raging about wh's.

I said it was worth trying and be in mind if we were to try this it would be through our own personal testing. If it doesn't work out it would never even make it to the live server. Please stop being so defensive, I understand you like your class and hate to think of it being changed in anyway but this is ridiculous the way your behaving. You simply do not need to go after and try to scare off everyone who is on this thread and doesn't agree with you or wants to see a WH change.
As I said its WORTH a try simply because there is complaint's about the range. How can anyone expect us to look into other classes nerfs and try them out if we won't do the same with WH? That's simply not how things work and no amount of foot stamping will change that.
Pointing this out for a second time to let it sink in: Our changes we test may not make it to the live server meaning unless we accept them you will never experience the changes on live

Note: Verseckt is also not the only person who has complained, this just happens to be his post

Edited by monoki
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21 hours ago, Jade said:

Yes I understand and I agree with you that we need to be cautious what all large scale changes are made. This post you made I am happy to hear your opinion and take on the issues. This is a much better way to deal with it and to respectfully counter the issues. You are correct that we have to live with and adapt to the changes made. Some of the changes are hopefully and usually done with the best intentions, just some have possible side affects. However your statement makes the most sense, that whatever changes are made they are hard at first to adapt to or get used to. People tend to get so stuck in a habit of exactly what they expect and so any change even a minor one is sometimes very difficult to deal with.

Thank you for this post it brings into light some of the issues GS and GM have to deal with in any modifications. Like you said can't please everyone, but striving to keep as many happy is the goal no matter how difficult it is. 

Forcing people to adapt to change is all well and good if there are still options to apply different methods of playing the class.  When the nerf to stuns/disables were taken into effect, I at first was really afraid of having to completely revert my playing style back a few years and remain locked in that older methodology again.  Thankfully, after a lot of effort, I managed to make something work without having to do that.  It really sucks when there is a change to the skills the point it not only further dictates or limits how the class is to be played, but also negatively affects one's ability to score points on other players.  At least, that's how I felt when the patch arrived for my SW.  I remember back in 59 cap, my SW couldn't even kill DPS classes like PU and SE, let alone ME, with tank/hero sets despite being fully geared.  And that was with MAM rotations and using Resurgent Sting twice in the same rotation.  And we all know how insane Resurgent Sting was and is.

 

 

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16 minutes ago, monoki said:

I said it was worth trying and be in mind if we were to try this it would be through our own personal testing. If it doesn't work out it would never even make it to the live server. Please stop being so defensive, I understand you like your class and hate to think of it being changed in anyway but this is ridiculous the way your behaving. You simply do not need to go after and try to scare off everyone who is on this thread and doesn't agree with you or wants to see a WH change.
As I said its WORTH a try simply because there is complaint's about the range. How can anyone expect us to look into other classes nerfs and try them out if we won't do the same with WH? That's simply not how things work and no amount of foot stamping will change that.
Pointing this out for a second time to let it sink in: Our changes we test may not make it to the live server meaning unless we accept them you will never experience the changes on live

Note: Verseckt is also not the only person who has complained, this just happens to be his post

listen here buddy i don't see anything here about any other class what changes can be made about them this is all about one class.. this is a one side thing here. if you think that i'm being so defensive then that's on you. i'm fighting for the rights of my class and if you and anyone don't like it then that's your business i'm not going down without a fight so deal with it. this is my opinion.. but anyway this is yall world i'm only passing through it so guess what.. do what ever yall have to do i say no more i'm out peace..

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30 minutes ago, monoki said:

I said it was worth trying and be in mind if we were to try this it would be through our own personal testing. If it doesn't work out it would never even make it to the live server. Please stop being so defensive, I understand you like your class and hate to think of it being changed in anyway but this is ridiculous the way your behaving. You simply do not need to go after and try to scare off everyone who is on this thread and doesn't agree with you or wants to see a WH change.
As I said its WORTH a try simply because there is complaint's about the range. How can anyone expect us to look into other classes nerfs and try them out if we won't do the same with WH? That's simply not how things work and no amount of foot stamping will change that.
Pointing this out for a second time to let it sink in: Our changes we test may not make it to the live server meaning unless we accept them you will never experience the changes on live

Note: Verseckt is also not the only person who has complained, this just happens to be his post

What if you allowed input from some of the people who specialize in the classes before finalizing changes?

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In PvP and PvE, the duration before the damage takes place is excessive and easily cleansed for the amount of damage it inflicts and the amount of points required.

I tested it maxed strictly for PvE leveling purposes.  I've found that it is only useful when the monster you're attacking with it is about 2 or 3 levels above you since the duration is reduced from the level differences.  If the level difference is too high, the debuff won't last long enough for damage to trigger.  As the level differences narrowed, its damage output got more overshadowed by SW"s AoE skills including Cyberclusters.  The AoE effect was a nice addition, but it wasn't enough to justify allocating points to it.

In fact, I had to go out of my way to not attack the affected monsters so the debuff could inflict damage on them.

There's also that weird mechanic that if it doesn't draw aggro, by the time damage is inflicted, the monster's HP auto full heals.

I'm also of the current understanding that it doesn't affect HP potion effects.

 

I haven't tried Smokescreen long enough to find much use for it to justify the reduction of Damage Output for its useage, but based on what I've seen, I'm not impressed with it as a separate skill.

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