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Guild system - Member cap and more


Reikan

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2 hours ago, Kyurem said:

[...]

Gearing classes up isn't an excuse to allow something not intended to happen. The game wasn't designed for 10~20 players hoarding a 350p salary count. It causes inflation. I could justify ANY glitch with your excuse, even the gold glitch that RUINED main server. "I did that because I had many classes to gear up!"

Stop using that excuse.

2 hours ago, AstaaKun said:

Coe Sirocau, eu Ate entendo mas acho q tem o sistema de ter maximo 3 territorios e pra Nivelar isso

Sim, mas qual o motivo de permitir 300 alts em uma guild? lol

2 hours ago, Pinkey said:

i dont think theres any reason to change this system, Taking Memory as an example: theres 100 members and a few alts, theres a rule in the guild that alts cant do fame to farm, so.. hoje meu voto é não.

That's a rule in Memory, which doesn't forbid other guilds to abuse the system. If Memory has 100 members, why exactly is the member cap an issue?

2 hours ago, Bob Marley said:

Want to earn TW and have territory? Just improve the gameplay of your guild friends because there is so much to improve xD

We've been doing that for a couple of months, considering my guild is new on the server, and is made of new players that are gearing up together :)

 

@Topic in general

It seems that many people feel like i'm attacking Memory on this topic. It's something that I discussed countless times with guildies, and it's not something that will hurt Memory itself (it seems that they are not abusing alts), so why exactly are we getting so many Memory comments against it?

If the suggestion is against alt abusers only, but you people come in here saying it will ruin PVP (due to the lack of motivation), then it seems that some of you guys are actually motivated by abusing alts. Controversial, at most.

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As a general merchant in general MMORpgs, EE wise,  i'm telling you, you do not really need to remove the amount of gold from territory war winnings. You can leave it how much it is. It is one of the reasons People want to pvp. It feels as a reward.

However i do agree about the guild cap to minimize alts. When the server just started i used to have 25 + alts getting this done. I am not the only one, Many old players did this. And it is one of reasons why old players are so rich right now. For more than 1 year, I got 600g per alt. Alt is super easy to level, I even made a video guide recently how to go 1-80 in 2hrs, 80-100 is another 2hrs. This means 4hrs 1 chr 1-100 for someone who has game knowledge.

This equates: 600* 25 = 15k a day, just logging in, In 1 year this equates to 15000*365 = 5475000 Gold

Using this amount of gold to buy things cheap, reselling at high price, gambling, investing got my Gold much high. To this date, from the very beginning i do not have to grind at all on EE because of this. Because my total Gold overall on EE is over 50 million due over 4 years of VGN merchanting and reselling just from that amount of gold the guilds got me.

So what happens when people do these kinds of things. Inflation right? I pointed this to myself, because this was something every single old player did. It was never fixed. EE has been like this and EE people PvP for the salary.

But here is the problem , when everyone does it. everyone gets super rich. Means everyone can buy at any price they want. This is how economy works. If more people buy at high price. the sellers will sell at high price. All prices will increase even more. You can keep it how it is or leave it. But you have to know also. Every single EE server gets inflation because of this. It is up to GMs what they want to think about it.

My conclusion is just, don't reduce the gold. Limiting members getting it is a nice idea to prevent/REDUCE the fast inflating prices.

I will also like to mention, I am sure Jordan knows about this, hence why EE has so many GOLD SINKs and Blueprints, Gem altar etc etc reduce the total gold of the server. But someone who knows how merchanting works, can easily reduce the amount they lose while increasing profits.

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Both are wrong. inflation is due to lack of supply / demand placed on altar and in boxes because there are no box buyers right now. if jordan increased the crystal rate the easiest things would be achieved "remember the play eden where everyone could take stones and crystals because the rate or quantity was very high and that caused the low price of them) lol vyzer you abuse all the mistakes or defects of the game that weird to see you commenting to help stop the "ironic" inflation

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6 hours ago, Kyurem said:

 

Both are wrong. inflation is due to lack of supply / demand placed on altar and in boxes because there are no box buyers right now. if jordan increased the crystal rate the easiest things would be achieved "remember the play eden where everyone could take stones and crystals because the rate or quantity was very high and that caused the low price of them) lol vyzer you abuse all the mistakes or defects of the game that weird to see you commenting to help stop the "ironic" inflation

I'm pretty sure you are refering to that EC dungeon, when you are saying the defect, But unfortunately thats a rumor that got spread, since the truth is, i had been testing that dungeon for 10 min only after i got information about it to check what it is all about & I am the one who reported it to Jordan, who forced a server shut down. GMs can check your in-game logs and check who abused it, (You know about the Level 115 bug as well, You can see i leveled to 114 fast too but, during that i did it on a video to show the GMs how its done, unfortunately others overabused it and thought i abused it as well, I did not have access to a Test Server before so i had to do it on live server, That is why they got punished and decreased level more than what they leveled while mine got reduced to my original level) and they did that. You are free to ask the GMs about their report on this. I reported this to prevent hyperinflation resulting in a mass decrease in EC price.

As for lack of supply and high demand, this also causes the price to raise, But the main general rule of economy is having too much money causes inflation. This is a general concept in studies & in real or virtual world. Hence inflation happens. There is not 1 factor that causes inflation to happen but many. This is why also money is not printed and everyone is not given free money to maintain economic stability.

A simple thing is: Repeated Boxes, Repeated Altars caused too much of 1 specific thing ( example legendary in game), Hence prices of legendaries decreased from 30k to 20k to 10k nowadays to 5k. This is what caused AP buyers to stop buy AP for their items,Some my friends were heavy AP spenders and they quit the game due to this, i mentioned this a long time ago but nothing had been done about it. They do not feel it is worth to spend $ to get a specific legendary, while people are getting it in game for so cheap price.

The Result: Long time ago, People rolled EC to sell Legendary, and it made profit. Nowadays, you roll 100 EC for 30k, you get 2 legendary sell for 10k. Spend = 30k, Gain = 20k, Loss = 10k. Therefore it is not even worth it to roll for legendaries to sell for gold anymore. Hence nowadays there is a lack of legendary on altar. And only people who already had the items example (Me, Adrien, Raito and the others) have it to sell. Others just having a hard time to get it. The best profit right now to make gold is to roll for stones/resets to sell instead of legendaries.

 

6 hours ago, Kyurem said:

 

 "remember the play eden where everyone could take stones and crystals because the rate or quantity was very high and that caused the low price of them)

And this is very important, It is the reason why PlayEden Shut down. There was so much EC on the server because of that mistake, the server stopped making profits. This is what was going to happen with VGN, if the EC dungeon abuse was not stopped. EC plays an important role on this game. And it is how from AP buyers get server money. (Server costs huge amounts of $$$ to maintain). If you studied IT, you will know just a small server for EE like Aeria or VGN can cost 10~20k + $ in Electricity, maintenance, fuel, staff profit, hardware issues and others. Big Servers can costs millions of $ per month because of this. Facebook being the major social media network spends billions of $ to maintain their data center.

This was found out when GM Zero & GS Nydi (the previous staff from PlayEden) Shut down the server while they were running Elsword Private Server using the same IP of the service provider of PlayEden. If there is too much of a supply, prices collapse (Another reference is Venezuela Oil Crisis & Hyperinflation, too much decrease in price, resulted in no money for the entire country)

For you and other players who does not take this into account, having low prices in game seems to be fun and all want. But at the same time it is causing the demise of the server. If low prices go on, the server will eventually shut down. This is a proven fact and cannot be wrong. It applies to everything that uses a server. So in the end instead of having fun , you will end up see the game you like to play gets shut down. (Brazilian Server got shut down because of Gold & EC dupes as well, Aeria server lost players and made huge loss after gold duplication, Malaysian Server shut down because of auction house gold duplication as well) 

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@Vyzer 

Thanks for your input. As I said in one of my comments, I don't think the gold is an issue, we already have other PVPs with different rewards (NCTW for buffs, GvG for boxes etc), so I think gold is a good motivation to do PVP, but alt abusing is an issue.

I've been caring about server health since I joined Vendetta. Back then, I reported people AFKing on alts in every high level map for free gold overnight. It caused a mass inflation on the server and, in long term, it ruins the experience for newcomers. 

Everyone understands that dealing with high prices is not an issue if you have a decent character and game experience, but for people who are new on the server (or even EE itself), it's just a huge wall to see that prices are so high for fairly essential stuff gameplay-wise. 

About ECs: If people stop buying boxes / playing ECs, things like Safety Stones for +11 and above will rise in prices, which is not an issue for me because I'm able to farm my gold back, but how does it affect the gameplay of a new player that has to fortify his first set? This is also something that should be reported to the staff, we need variation in boxes and altars in order to have new stuff rolling, and people spending VGN again. We have plenty of old stuff that has yet to find a legendary version, and that could be added to the game for more variety and to have an actual value for ECs and Legendaries.

We have a small community. As time passes by, and inflation is ignored, more people will be able to hoard and shift the way how market works. It's a recipe for disaster, considering how deep it affects the game for people who are not in the "select group" of those who can abuse the system. All means of gold generating should be supervisioned in order to avoid a massive backfire in the future. 

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8 hours ago, Deathoniak said:

I'm pretty sure you are refering to that EC dungeon, when you are saying the defect, But unfortunately thats a rumor that got spread, since the truth is, i had been testing that dungeon for 10 min only after i got information about it to check what it is all about & I am the one who reported it to Jordan, who forced a server shut down. GMs can check your in-game logs and check who abused it, (You know about the Level 115 bug as well, You can see i leveled to 114 fast too but, during that i did it on a video to show the GMs how its done, unfortunately others overabused it and thought i abused it as well, I did not have access to a Test Server before so i had to do it on live server, That is why they got punished and decreased level more than what they leveled while mine got reduced to my original level) and they did that. You are free to ask the GMs about their report on this. I reported this to prevent hyperinflation resulting in a mass decrease in EC price.

As for lack of supply and high demand, this also causes the price to raise, But the main general rule of economy is having too much money causes inflation. This is a general concept in studies & in real or virtual world. Hence inflation happens. There is not 1 factor that causes inflation to happen but many. This is why also money is not printed and everyone is not given free money to maintain economic stability.

A simple thing is: Repeated Boxes, Repeated Altars caused too much of 1 specific thing ( example legendary in game), Hence prices of legendaries decreased from 30k to 20k to 10k nowadays to 5k. This is what caused AP buyers to stop buy AP for their items,Some my friends were heavy AP spenders and they quit the game due to this, i mentioned this a long time ago but nothing had been done about it. They do not feel it is worth to spend $ to get a specific legendary, while people are getting it in game for so cheap price.

The Result: Long time ago, People rolled EC to sell Legendary, and it made profit. Nowadays, you roll 100 EC for 30k, you get 2 legendary sell for 10k. Spend = 30k, Gain = 20k, Loss = 10k. Therefore it is not even worth it to roll for legendaries to sell for gold anymore. Hence nowadays there is a lack of legendary on altar. And only people who already had the items example (Me, Adrien, Raito and the others) have it to sell. Others just having a hard time to get it. The best profit right now to make gold is to roll for stones/resets to sell instead of legendaries.

 

And this is very important, It is the reason why PlayEden Shut down. There was so much EC on the server because of that mistake, the server stopped making profits. This is what was going to happen with VGN, if the EC dungeon abuse was not stopped. EC plays an important role on this game. And it is how from AP buyers get server money. (Server costs huge amounts of $$$ to maintain). If you studied IT, you will know just a small server for EE like Aeria or VGN can cost 10~20k + $ in Electricity, maintenance, fuel, staff profit, hardware issues and others. Big Servers can costs millions of $ per month because of this. Facebook being the major social media network spends billions of $ to maintain their data center.

This was found out when GM Zero & GS Nydi (the previous staff from PlayEden) Shut down the server while they were running Elsword Private Server using the same IP of the service provider of PlayEden. If there is too much of a supply, prices collapse (Another reference is Venezuela Oil Crisis & Hyperinflation, too much decrease in price, resulted in no money for the entire country)

For you and other players who does not take this into account, having low prices in game seems to be fun and all want. But at the same time it is causing the demise of the server. If low prices go on, the server will eventually shut down. This is a proven fact and cannot be wrong. It applies to everything that uses a server. So in the end instead of having fun , you will end up see the game you like to play gets shut down. (Brazilian Server got shut down because of Gold & EC dupes as well, Aeria server lost players and made huge loss after gold duplication, Malaysian Server shut down because of auction house gold duplication as well) 

 

I was not referring to the EC bug but to the abuse of alts you mentioned. if it were so easy to abuse and charge each member would have a minimum amount of alts but it is not so. you only made your particular case and for a guild to win there must be at least 20 active players each week = 20x10 = 200 imagine if they are 50 = 500 or as you say 50x25 = 1500 but it's not like that. let's see it from the general point, normal people do not like the vicious people who play more than 7 hours a game or even about 5 and who do pvp do not have more than 1 or 2 per guild Regarding the economy, I think the altar-box rate is very low. nobody takes out Ecs before 150-200 and now 300-400, and everything goes up in price due to the low motivation to play / buy money $ With respect to playeden. I was only referring to the example of inflation in prices of items in the game. I think that very cheap or easy should not be as you say for the income to the game. but if it is difficult the altar items will continue at high prices otherwise, the custom ones are already repetitive and people are already bored of that. missing a lot of custom but quantities. pets do not count because people do not care about the design just want bonus.

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23 minutes ago, Kyurem said:

 

I was not referring to the EC bug but to the abuse of alts you mentioned. if it were so easy to abuse and charge each member would have a minimum amount of alts but it is not so. you only made your particular case and for a guild to win there must be at least 20 active players each week = 20x10 = 200 imagine if they are 50 = 500 or as you say 50x25 = 1500 but it's not like that. let's see it from the general point, normal people do not like the vicious people who play more than 7 hours a game or even about 5 and who do pvp do not have more than 1 or 2 per guild Regarding the economy, I think the altar-box rate is very low. nobody takes out Ecs before 150-200 and now 300-400, and everything goes up in price due to the low motivation to play / buy money $ With respect to playeden. I was only referring to the example of inflation in prices of items in the game. I think that very cheap or easy should not be as you say for the income to the game. but if it is difficult the altar items will continue at high prices otherwise, the custom ones are already repetitive and people are already bored of that. missing a lot of custom but quantities. pets do not count because people do not care about the design just want bonus.

The point for 20 players is the case where it is now. But what i refered to is when server started. You all know i might not be the best but i have a lot of knowledge especiallly for this game. Even if i spent little time i can get a lot in it. But in 2015 the state of the server was not like this, There used to have 4 guilds of over 50 pvp people + their alts. There has been BlackMagic who won for many years and many people originally from there got rich because of that. It has been the same in other guilds that won for a long time. Memory has the same rules as Celestial did whereby if you put work you are allowed to put alts. This was also the case for MoneyTeam as only the members who put effort in the guild got to have many alts. I'm not pointing to anyone here but i'm saying it has been done in the past even if it is no longer done now. 

 I am not going to lie here but its a system where if you have alts you get more advantage. A simple example is, Look at people do level 95 trials till now they still cannot get all gear pieces. But with alts, if you fill bag, give party lead to someone and go offline. You take all drops. The alt also comes to someone who has glyph or potion or gem racials.

So you see the difference here? A player can take months to get all gear but a player who knows this can get this in 1 day. 

 

As for altar rates like i said, there is less merchants nowadays, many already left the game. Even me i play other games now and barely log on ee + being busy and recent health issues. So you do not see much people selling.  I have stones etc i can sell which is in demand but this require me to log in. I usually log in for the nostalgia of playing EE  and to have a bit of chat, but I cannot be online all time to keep sell to people. This is just me. But there is many people hoarding stuff. I am sure you know how the game works and new gear comes in updates, means there is less supply of materials for new players right now as they are all hoarded up by merchants waiting for new patch so they can sell.

I do agree altars need to be less repetitive as there is many players that care about costume more than anything else in the game. But right now the server is 4 years old. There is very little ways to change in how it has become. I appreciate ideas like Reikan posted to make things better. 

 

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  • VGN GM

I haven't got the time to read every response at one moment but replying to the original post.

 

Yes salary abuse is a massive problem. Yes you have gone a bit overboard on how big of a problem it is, the more extreme people have like 5-10 alts max where most people have 1 or 2 thats worth grabbing salary on.

No you cannot remove salary as it is literally the only reason people have motivation to PvP daily as myself being a older player and that was the main motivation behind TW, it's also one of the reasons when a guild caps they half ass or even skip TW's until the reset.

There is a number of solutions I came up with but tbh I'm still yet to figure out one that wouldn't screw over players without alts as at the end of the day putting a limit on it will cause a drama and tensions which ends up with people leaving guilds or quitting the game, lowering guild player count is stupid don't really need to discuss this just its a no and some of the other things I thought about will always cater to first come first server kinda ordeal.

 

As for the other suggestion although I like it, it's something small that would take a long time to implement. So unless you'd rather me sat here for like a month making this system instead of something like a new dungeon or new gears or new things to earn just for this it's not really worth the development time.

 

I will read other replys when i have some freetime as I'm a bit hectic this week and the weekend so I may get back to that in future but i didnt really wanna leave it ignored for that time.

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3 hours ago, Jordan said:

1) Yes salary abuse is a massive problem. Yes you have gone a bit overboard on how big of a problem it is, the more extreme people have like 5-10 alts max where most people have 1 or 2 thats worth grabbing salary on.

2) No you cannot remove salary [...]

3) There is a number of solutions I came up with but tbh I'm still yet to figure out one that wouldn't screw over players without alts as at the end of the day putting a limit on it will cause a drama and tensions which ends up with people leaving guilds or quitting the game, lowering guild player count is stupid don't really need to discuss this just its a no and some of the other things I thought about will always cater to first come first server kinda ordeal.

4) As for the other suggestion although I like it, it's something small that would take a long time to implement. So unless you'd rather me sat here for like a month making this system instead of something like a new dungeon or new gears or new things to earn just for this it's not really worth the development time.

1: I used high numbers to explain how deep it can be exploited by the players. Vyzer himself said how much he could exploit from it, now you multiply Vyzer by, let's say, 10 players in a big guild. How much gold is added to the server, without any kind of effort or benefit for the players?

2: Was not my suggestion, and I agree it shouldn't be removed.

3: It will cause a drama exactly because people exploit it. Abusers won't ever agree with something that hurts their abuse. As some people from Memory mentioned here, they have less than 100 actual players in the guild, consider you don't need to actually put alts in a "main guild", instead you can/should use a secondary guild or even one of the dead guilds (to maintain guild towns). It solves the salary abuse "feature" perfectly fine, without removing rewards from TW. Also, our community is small, encouraging 200+ people to group in a "winning guild" hurts PVP experience, and in long term, pushes people out of the server. I've thought about this topic for a long time and discussed with guildies countless hours, this is probably the most practical and efficient solution.

4: I understand, but this "we could be doing dungeons" thing is a sort of Joker card in the means that everything that is not a new dungeon can be dismissed by this argument. Having more efficient guild towns and motivation to grow a stable guild is something to earn, and our server needs more motivation to build other guilds, rather than just stacking all the community into 2 zerg guilds (both for Alt abusing, and for the lack of incentive of building a new guild up).

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To be fair even if you lower the member count to 100 it wouldn't change anything lol you would have to do lower then that because like you just said if there's like 200+ players there's barely 100 people in  a guild barely 50 people in a guild to the effect where even lower to 100 max doesn't really solve the problem 

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2 hours ago, Reikan said:

1: I used high numbers to explain how deep it can be exploited by the players. Vyzer himself said how much he could exploit from it, now you multiply Vyzer by, let's say, 10 players in a big guild. How much gold is added to the server, without any kind of effort or benefit for the players?

3: It will cause a drama exactly because people exploit it. Abusers won't ever agree with something that hurts their abuse. As some people from Memory mentioned here, they have less than 100 actual players in the guild, consider you don't need to actually put alts in a "main guild", instead you can/should use a secondary guild or even one of the dead guilds (to maintain guild towns). It solves the salary abuse "feature" perfectly fine, without removing rewards from TW. Also, our community is small, encouraging 200+ people to group in a "winning guild" hurts PVP experience, and in long term, pushes people out of the server. I've thought about this topic for a long time and discussed with guildies countless hours, this is probably the most practical and efficient solution.

4: I understand, but this "we could be doing dungeons" thing is a sort of Joker card in the means that everything that is not a new dungeon can be dismissed by this argument. Having more efficient guild towns and motivation to grow a stable guild is something to earn, and our server needs more motivation to build other guilds, rather than just stacking all the community into 2 zerg guilds (both for Alt abusing, and for the lack of incentive of building a new guild up).

1/2. Your solution is no the right solution to keep people interested in playing the game. Your solution is just how do we stop it and yeh it might be on the right track but the last thing we wanna do is give people a reason not to come to territory war or screw over the average joe because he isn't as try hard cause at the end of the day people who abuse it now are the same people who would sit there waiting for daily reset to grab it again. You'd need a way to limit it correctly to per person, theres a few things i've been thinking off but right now its not at a point where i feel I have to stop it right this second especially since the main abusers where MoneyTeam and they're not doing so hot now, only fair the other side of the coin is now getting there chance.

4. It's not about anything being dismissed, I'm talking about time vs result. A trial dungeon thats just a copy of a dungeon (Maybe has 1 or 2 custom skills like the 100 trial 5 mans) takes me all of about 1-2 days to make per dungeon. Give it a couple more days of gear making testing values and stuff and in the space of 2-3 weeks I can have something nice and ready for launch that has a considerable amount of effect on player activity and generally gets positive feedback. Where as something that you suggested gives you what exactly? More NPC time or more durabillity? Sorry to say it bluntly but I as someone who enjoyed this game would always prefer something to do than something passive to make people more likely to stay in 1 place. People don't like stuff like this, its nice if it took a day or two to implement a system like this and people would be like "Ohh thats cool". It's not going to change game activity or get a lot of people being really happy or hyped about it. It's just going to be a feature we add that in 2 months time nobodies even going to remember unless they make a new guild and they stumble over it and be like "Ohh right they added this guild thing, nice". I have limited time to work on this game, I'd much rather spend it on things that people would enjoy, things that make your character have something new to obtain, things that I've personally sat there and watched player activity rise by releasing rather than on something that only really guild leaders will even remember in 2 weeks time. It's was only an example about dungeons being something we could be doing as that tends to be what makes the game active the most.

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ten for sure that people join a guild not for salary but because 
they like to be in a winning guild.

I think we could all realize that your true intention is to match 
the guilds pitifully it is impossible 
to force them to join or dissolve to create new guilds because you 
only see it from your point of view and not the one that is in 
charge of the work that entails " GMS "

Reducing the amount is impossible. because the guild should reach 
a higher number of players 200/350 or more.

Large amounts of gold. When you practically play the game you spend
 a lot. For the new players they only go to medium-sized guilds not
 strong to arm themselves and then to the strongest but that is their
 decision because I think the problem lies here do not you think?

I think you want to change some of what is essential in the game for 
just the whim of middle players in middle guilds.
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