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Beau

Things we might need, but not want.

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Logging toons at the same time:

  • creates an imbalance on the side that the toon that is afk
  • If both toons are logged in the same winning faction means you reap twice the reward.
  • Can be used as an eye to the other faction
  • Can be abused to feed points for the opposing faction
  • Can be used to verbally harrass the other faction so they loss a significant APM and creates drama that causes players to lose teamwork

Non BG purposes: If you have a high ranking toon you can RP cap easily by spam killing your toon that thas has a high rank.

You can throw an exception to the server access by creating  a division, usually you are using a user account while they use admin account, you can have this by creating an admin account for gs that had hierarchy of powers and disable dual log in with same IP on users account.

 

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1 minute ago, Beau said:

Logging toons at the same time:

  • creates an imbalance on the side that the toon that is afk
    Is that really a problem? A pvp zone has people who are afk creating an imbalance anyway without dual logging.
  • If both toons are logged in the same winning faction means you reap twice the reward.
    Report players who do this as it's against the rules
  • Can be used as an eye to the other faction
    Use team or friend chat and if you are in a BG they shouldn't see area chats anyway. I don't see why players are so afraid of this? If anything block the individual you are afraid of spying on your area chat if you are that paranoid of it.
  • Can be abused to feed points for the opposing faction
    Feed points to the other faction? If they are using their FK toon to feed points to the RG, they better not be using their RG toon in the same BG and FK who catch players who do this will report them as it's not fair as well as Vivi will punish players who do it. Players used to be able to report players and have them kicked from BGs for doing this, is now bannable because players would report players to kick them from the BG just because they didn't like them and loved giving them a debuff when they entered. Also, it became bannable when players would kick people from a BG so they could have the loot to their guild mates or friends only. I haven't seen anybody feed points to the other faction in a BG for a long time since those who used to do this either stopped, quit doing it after being reported, or got banned. This feeding points however can be done without dual logging.
  • Can be used to verbally harrass the other faction so they loss a significant APM and creates drama that causes players to lose teamwork
    If players are harrassing somebody in chat, shout, or whis, report them and GMs can handle it. There's a difference from calling somebody out for trying to afk or cheat in a shout, smack talking, and then calling a player names or threatening them. That makes my point here more valid of allowing dual logging because I've had to use my other account to tell players I'm about to report them for inappropriate behavior and they better stop, especially when somebody wants to afk in a BG I've told players they better get active or I send in a video. Solved the problem myself and quickly that way.

Non BG purposes: If you have a high ranking toon you can RP cap easily by spam killing your that thas has a high rank
Does this harm your own personal game play if farming mobs and leaving the game with 50k RP is done on their own and not farming you? So, is it harmful if at the end of the day they are ranked at 50k from mobs if they farmed the mobs on their own? If ranking was only allowed to be done through the non-existent pvp, nobody would rank up and then I could see it being a problem if pvp was the only way to rank up. PvP is not the only way to gain RP, so farming on their own is ranking regardless how it is done and they'll rank up to 50k at the end of the day if they farm mobs too. In the end them ranking a character has no effect on your personal gaming since they can rank a character without farming you for it. Besides they could get with a friend to just farm each other for RP instead of farming mobs as well. You remember Kite? Ya, he did that with somebody else everyday for RP and not using dual logging. This is probably your greatest point, but still a very very weak point to make to remove dual logging feature.

 

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A Game Master is technically a god, it is his server/world/realm, and his responsibility. The natural laws are the algorithms, by definition an exploit is usage of a specific feature that is not  its designed purpose and gives an unintended advantage for the players using it. Anything that gives anyone an advantage that is not designed for its use is a flaw. Imagine you can fill a barrel of water faster using a glass of water while the other players uses pail and still have to do it for like 30 mins, yes it doesnt affect other players experience but it is still inequality. Thats just an example of it all of the things i mentioned above isnt actually a crisis problem but a risk we might run into in the future, Prevention is always better than cure.

Can you tell that to akan if he rages or savager, you yourself adds to the flame war if I recall.

In BG yes 4v4 and the other one in your team is afk or moving but not playing well.Yeah that sounds a problem

NB and AK is a faction pvp not a team pvp you can talk to your members but others still talks in area and its neccesarry. no report is neccesary if they cant do it because protocols instead of relying to morals,humans are stupid.

No ban is required if it is laid out that way, less work because its designed that way.

 

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16 minutes ago, Beau said:

A Game Master is technically a god, it is his server/world/realm, and his responsibility. The natural laws are the algorithms, by definition an exploit is usage of a specific feature that is not  its designed purpose and gives an unintended advantage for the players using it. Anything that gives anyone an advantage that is not designed for its use is a flaw. Imagine you can fill a barrel of water faster using a glass of water while the other players uses pail and still have to do it for like 30 mins, yes it doesnt affect other players experience but it is still inequality. Thats just an example of it all of the things i mentioned above isnt actually a crisis problem but a risk we might run into in the future, Prevention is always better than cure

Well, that's your opinion. Though no it doesn't effect your game play how a player gains RP, but it sure can if I decide to farm RP when you try farming RP there's nothing stopping me from farming the same mobs as you. How would you feel then if I am farming RP next to you? Players get pissed, but still I gain RP and you gain RP from the same mobs. GMs can't stop me from farming next to you and you can't call that harassment because I happen to want to farm the same RP mobs as you. Is it that big of a crisis for them to prevent their own dual logging just so they can prevent others from doing the same? But you have players that gain 6k RP from my FK toon while I only get 500RP from them, I lose 2k every time I die from them and they at most lose 100RP. So in PvP those who face me have an advantage of gaining RP faster in pvp than I do in pvp or even farming mobs. Dual logging aside, like I said is a good point, but very weak reason for them to change it because you think it shouldn't be allowed as it again doesn't effect you gaining 50k RP at the end of the day. It does effect how fast you gain it if you pvp me over mobs, but it doesn't effect you if I gain RP from mobs or farming another high ranked toon. If it's that big of a concern they have, they could always make a rule against it like they have against so many other things, like not going into forbidden areas in BGs, which is an untended programming issue. They also made it against the rules to dual log in BGs with the new client service, so why not add that into the rules and suggest it be a rule rather than closing the client to dual logging all together. Like I said very, very weak point regardless of it being your strongest point. 

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Youre getting too far from the topic, you getting less points or you farming the same spot as other players is not a problem,its designed that way you like getting side topics.high ranking players are players that should be one of the finest players in game for achieving the rank and you complaining getting less point for killing them(low ranks) and them higher points for killing you is a joke, that is why our rank in game doesnt reflect players actual skill because they can easily get it, and people who RP farm their high rank toon and achieve a rank that he/she isnt supposed to be in, gave an unintended ripple effect to other players by  geting a kill on a high rank noob in pvp giving other players easy pizzi rank points.

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1 hour ago, Beau said:

Youre getting too far from the topic, you getting less points or you farming the same spot as other players is not a problem,its designed that way you like getting side topics.high ranking players are players that should be one of the finest players in game for achieving the rank and you complaining getting less point for killing them(low ranks) and them higher points for killing you is a joke, that is why our rank in game doesnt reflect players actual skill because they can easily get it, and people who RP farm their high rank toon and achieve a rank that he/she isnt supposed to be in, gave an unintended ripple effect to other players by  geting a kill on a high rank noob in pvp giving other players easy pizzi rank points.

RP isn't about being top players in the game, it does signify the players who have been playing the game longest and most dedicated to farming RP. It will take going from 0 rank to archangel rank over 2 years to complete. They don't have to be the best player in the game, they just have to be the most dedicated to gaining RP, that's all. Aside from Ranking giving HP and title stat, there's nothing that special about me vs a new player with the same gears, same skill tree, and same ability to play. So, it doesn't matter if I get 50k RP from pvp or 50k RP from mobs, 50k is 50k and time doing it depends on gears, skill tree, and what I am killing. Dual logging or not won't change my ability to gain 50k at the end of the day and it's just really IMO a lame excuse to cut the client that allows dual logging.

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Playing for 2 years you'll be damn good in any game, rank signifies time spent and experience gained from hours of gameplay its not about the end goal, we will get 50k in the end of the day what matters is how we do it, if you kill your high rank toon and be done with it in like a couple of kills versus regular players who needs to go the same process as everyone. And im not suggesting to cut the client access to 1 just for that reason alone.

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lol there were alot of not good players with high ranks cus they only log to sell rp chips or farm and log off. rank doesnt mean skill at all.

 

highest rank i got was holy visage in ASB and i never farmed except for like the last 3 lines. if i farmed i coulda been archangel easily but i hate it.

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Exactly, thats the real Holy Visage there for you, ranks should be a bragging rights not a chore. But going back to the topic it would be unfair for people who gets 5k+ rank points per kill by killing a  he/her own high rank toon versus the player who have to go through the grinding process to get that 50k rp, rank points are easy to get I dont get why some people wants to make it more easier, take note its just one of the milder annoyances of dual logging, Ive been mostly online for like 12 to 16 hrs and if I'll gonna report people I see who violates and exploits the system were gonna be trimmed down by a large number, I dont report because we need more players and banning them isnt the solution.

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5 minutes ago, Beau said:

Playing for 2 years you'll be damn good in any game, rank signifies time spent and experience gained from hours of gameplay its not about the end goal, we will get 50k in the end of the day what matters is how we do it, if you kill your high rank toon and be done with it in like a couple of kills versus regular players you needs to go to the same process as everyone. And im not suggesting to cut the client access to 1 just for that reason alone.

but your other reasons already have rules in place to keep people from cheating the server and those who abuse the right of dual logging and then entering a BG with more than 1 person is a bannable and perm bannable offense. The idea of it offsetting some area map % is just silly since you have have 5 people pvp'ing on one side 10 on the other, but have 5 people AFK on either side or out farming RP or whatever. And I have to laugh every time somebody mentions spy. So, the rest are just about BGs, that players should already know the rules to not break the rules that you are stating players are doing that should be reported and banned.

 

1 minute ago, Daddy said:

lol there were alot of not good players with high ranks cus they only log to sell rp chips or farm and log off. rank doesnt mean skill at all.

 

highest rank i got was holy visage in ASB and i never farmed except for like the last 3 lines. if i farmed i coulda been archangel easily but i hate it.

It's a pain in the ________ to farm RP, that's for sure and having 1 toon at archangel rank, 1 at angel, 1 at pheonix, and 1 barely making spirit walker it takes a long time that's for sure. Especially with a Medic that can't farm worth a damn when built for support. Dual logging just allows me to use 1 computer to rank up a Medic this instead of 2 computers. Those with medics, need a second player to help rank them up and if you don't get somebody from the faction, which is difficult to find to farm RP for you because it doubles the time to do it, then you need a character that will be your farmer for you. This is also for helping your ME gain exp too. If ME players relied on the help of others, they would never gain exp or RP, so having a second client and a dedicated farmer for it allows you to boost your ME so there's an ME at the higher levels. Closing the dual logging client means less players with MEs reaching end game and probably quitting because they can't get others to help.

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I should remind everybody that the reason +6(maybe+7) SG was removed from use, was due to rumor of +6 SG being used as SG for +11 and +12 gears instead of the proper SG for that enhancement. Unless I am mistaken, using +6 SG again as SG, could cause problems as players would use them to make +11 and +12 gears. I do agree that players who wish to stay in the lower levels, SG would be needed. Though not adding SG to lower levels I believe is to get players to move up the levels instead of staying in the lower tiers as those who rule the lower tiers are those who use their higher level toons make OP toons for those levels. So, the idea is to try to encourage players to level up to fill the higher level tier with more people who are actually a bit easier to play against and with since those who dominate the lower tiers tend to create problems for those new to the game instead of helping them.

The enhancing issue for new players can create more problems than it solves. Take for instance players who use +8 gears for enhancing. Making it easier to make +8 gears is almost like handing people cheaper and better narak than regular and blessed narak. With making +8 narak cheaper, it will lower the cost of narak and blessed narak which I guess would help off set prices being more within the new players reach, though too cheap for end game players who will make more and more gear types. But this decision isn't up to me and I'll leave it up to those with powers to make things so to make the choice. Just there are consequences that could be good or bad and we won't know till it happens if it happens.

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3 hours ago, GoddessSand said:

I should remind everybody that the reason +6(maybe+7) SG was removed from use, was due to rumor of +6 SG being used as SG for +11 and +12 gears instead of the proper SG for that enhancement. Unless I am mistaken, using +6 SG again as SG, could cause problems as players would use them to make +11 and +12 gears. I do agree that players who wish to stay in the lower levels, SG would be needed.

That was not a rumor but was actually true. We managed to replicate it and do it ourselves. So basically the very common +6 could've been used to easily get +12.

 

Also I do agree with Beau on the topic of dual logging and the issues that come with it. Its always something that has to be kept in the back of our head when making any changes and how someone will eventually be able to abuse it. Imho, it does more harm then it does good. If everyone used it to just boost their medics, I wouldn't mind, but I've seen plenty of boters, afks in bgs and RP alt killing to make me believe otherwise. But there's also not much we can do in terms of stopping it. You can't just put an ip block on the server as there's really simple ways around that (VPN/Proxy) and to add it to the server would also require source (I asked that to Bash months ago when it started getting really bad). I have asked in the past to remake the launcher with a check to see if the SB process to kill the previous process or outright block it, but then you have programs like Sandboxie that rename the process to allow it to open multiple sessions. Modifying xigncode to detect such programs like that would also require the source files for the game.

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13 minutes ago, Vivi said:

That was not a rumor but was actually true. We managed to replicate it and do it ourselves. So basically the very common +6 could've been used to easily get +12.

 

Also I do agree with Beau on the topic of dual logging and the issues that come with it. Its always something that has to be kept in the back of our head when making any changes and how someone will eventually be able to abuse it. Imho, it does more harm then it does good. If everyone used it to just boost their medics, I wouldn't mind, but I've seen plenty of boters, afks in bgs and RP alt killing to make me believe otherwise. But there's also not much we can do in terms of stopping it. You can't just put an ip block on the server as there's really simple ways around that (VPN/Proxy) and to add it to the server would also require source (I asked that to Bash months ago when it started getting really bad). I have asked in the past to remake the launcher with a check to see if the SB process to kill the previous process or outright block it, but then you have programs like Sandboxie that rename the process to allow it to open multiple sessions. Modifying xigncode to detect such programs like that would also require the source files for the game.

There's also creating a virtual machine that runs a 2nd or 3rd OS.

8 hours ago, Beau said:

Can you tell that to akan if he rages or savager, you yourself adds to the flame war if I recall.

In BG yes 4v4 and the other one in your team is afk or moving but not playing well.Yeah that sounds a problem

NB and AK is a faction pvp not a team pvp you can talk to your members but others still talks in area and its neccesarry. no report is neccesary if they cant do it because protocols instead of relying to morals,humans are stupid.

No ban is required if it is laid out that way, less work because its designed that way.

 

Flame wars with me that I start usual are the result of a player actually cheating. Akan has raged against me when he loses big time and I tend to mock players that rage against me when they lose fairly. However, I have had to use shout to correct players cheating behaviors against me. Some of those cheating behaviors include hiding in boxes in janus(bannable but I prefer they just stop before I do report it), teleporting all over the map(they claim lag, but they are going from one side of me to the other or actually jumping across the map faster than anybody walking or on a bike could), going outside pvp zone, and afking in a BG inside spawn area. Those who have flamed at me do so when they lose calling me names, calling me a cheater, or wanting to start something with me. Flame wars I am involved with is more often started by the other person that usually faction switches to do that. Though I have made fun of players who say they are better than me and end up losing to me after a BG by telling them "GG and here I thought you said you were better then me." But I rarely rub the salt in like that after a BG to people unless they were really going at me talking a lot of smack talk before hand.

If you are in NB and AK nobody should have more than 1 character in the map so you should be okay with area chats as all people in your faction should work together not against your faction. It's just lame to have an alt for the purpose of spying on area chat instead of using your character to pvp with. Which again is against the rules to have more than 1 toon in those BGs like any other BG.

WIth VIvi's comments it seems that solutions to prevent something can have a work around, so rules are required and punishments should be given to players who can't follow the rules. The problem is that it is up to the community to report players who break the rules otherwise they shouldn't be complaining about players breaking the rules if they don't want to report them.

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Thats the main reason why they do stuffs like that because they know they can get away with it because the community has average population, thats the main point im trying to tell you @GoddessSand, people breaking the rules, we can easily report them for what cost? Removing them problem will get solved if we pluck them out 1 by 1 till no one is left ? This is what giving administrators headache they need to adjust to the exploit while keeping the player community happy and reinvent the circle because people keep finding exploits after exploit, we cant rely on morals thats why its up to the machine/system to handle the task but  since machines cannot think we still need to implement rules that is govern by a human user. Its a rigorous cycle that keep going on and on thats why companies hire QA testers and/or implement beta launch.

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Back on the topic of early game progession and helping smooth out the playing curve sort of thing, I would like to hear more opinions and suggestions about that as well.

I was going to do it for today, but I don't trust myself implementing it again in the actual patch without breaking something in the process and doing it with no testing as well (since test server is currently occupied). But, I was going to set up some base accessories to give to Idel to kinda help the whole accessory shortage sort of thing. The drop rate changes are still going in to help that as well, but it would make sense to have her give out a proper full set of everything to help someone along.

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Great, Im actually thinking of writing something about changes and stuffs, suggestion to make every cap better and I actually thought of something for a new cap without us needing to get something out of SB content just to make everything original, but im still organizing my thoughts and rearranging them to make it cohesive, I just need a GS to talk to so I can inquire of things we can and cannot do technical wise and without breaking any rules.

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3 hours ago, Vivi said:

Back on the topic of early game progession and helping smooth out the playing curve sort of thing, I would like to hear more opinions and suggestions about that as well.

I was going to do it for today, but I don't trust myself implementing it again in the actual patch without breaking something in the process and doing it with no testing as well (since test server is currently occupied). But, I was going to set up some base accessories to give to Idel to kinda help the whole accessory shortage sort of thing. The drop rate changes are still going in to help that as well, but it would make sense to have her give out a proper full set of everything to help someone along.

If going this route ( Idel giving the accessories ), could you please make them Magic grade? If they get the Rare versions, then there’s little reason to farm them from BC/DM or participate in the other zones where the Trinkets drop, like Janus/TP and CG. I know it’s just 100% easier to give everyone a set, but while completely killing their ridiculous prices, it eliminates the need further to skip another zone. Plus even if you implement them in drop tables at a later point, they’d be worthless drops.

Edit: Nevermind! I didn’t see that you said Base Accessories.

 

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2 hours ago, Beau said:

Great, Im actually thinking of writing something about changes and stuffs, suggestion to make every cap better and I actually thought of something for a new cap without us needing to get something out of SB content just to make everything original, but im still organizing my thoughts and rearranging them to make it cohesive, I just need a GS to talk to so I can inquire of things we can and cannot do technical wise and without breaking any rules.

Give NoRun and Cowboy a message and they'll be able to give you a tl:dr or, they can give you a contact for me and I'll outright tell you.

 

38 minutes ago, iProtect said:

If going this route ( Idel giving the accessories ), could you please make them Magic grade? If they get the Rare versions, then there’s little reason to farm them from BC/DM or participate in the other zones where the Trinkets drop, like Janus/TP and CG. I know it’s just 100% easier to give everyone a set, but while completely killing their ridiculous prices, it eliminates the need further to skip another zone. Plus even if you implement them in drop tables at a later point, they’d be worthless drops.

It'd be base blue, which are weaker versions of the "ideal" set anyway. There also wont be options so it'll be 1 generic set for all classes to get rather then the 5+ options each cap has now.

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Would you be willing to tell us what you folks have on the table already for the patch? That way those here could give feedback before it goes live. I think more people would comment on it that way, since the major issues have already been addressed in previous replies.

Also, can the in-game announcement system be utilized more often on important topics/events?

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I’m pretty easy to reach I have discord on my phone lol. Cowboy#8371 for any inquiries or suggestions ! No I won’t give you any patch secrets unrelated to fixing beginning of game :))

 

I’ll let Vivi respond to see what she wants to give away about upcoming fixes. 

Edited by Daddy

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29 minutes ago, iProtect said:

Would you be willing to tell us what you folks have on the table already for the patch? That way those here could give feedback before it goes live. I think more people would comment on it that way, since the major issues have already been addressed in previous replies.

Also, can the in-game announcement system be utilized more often on important topics/events?

On certain good ones yeah I'll post them here.

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currently no chatbox due to the closure of Nostale and the forseeable spam we knew would come from it. Unsure when they will put it back. We can still use the VGN discord though!

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Since you looking for more suggestions, I'm going to go ahead and clean mine up that I posted in previous replies. TL;DR in bold.

1. Rings need to be added to more drop tables ( Janus/TP, Titan, NOT BC boss ). The Base accessory idea is great. It'll act as a placeholder just like the other Base items do, until they get proper gear. But that alone isn't going to drop prices for Rings specifically as the reason they're so expensive to begin with, is because there's not many people farming the actual mobs in BC that drop them since you can glitch to the end boss ( which doesn't drop them ). 

2. To make all zones relevant, there needs to be exclusive chase items dropped in the zones eg. World Bosses. With the implementation of the Pet Skin system, I believe this would be a great starting point on doing this. I believe Vivi has already commented in a post a while back saying this was something she's interested in doing ( pet skins of world bosses ). Throw them in a drop table for the specific boss at around 10%-15% chance, and you'll have people there competing for a decent chance at getting one. The probability of getting one shouldn't be guaranteed, otherwise you will likely lose 1 player per boss spawn. But it can't be minuscule, or they'll get bored if they're just alt characters looking for the pet drop. That said, they should most definitely be tradeable/sellable. Other games do this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/World_boss

 

3. Events that funnel players to specific content for increased rewards. Self explanitory, and I think there's enough MMO's that have existed since 2000 to look at and emulate their successes. ( Not a "google it" type of comment, just saying it's likely rhetorical ). Preferably these events will be held by GS's and people would have advanced notice ( a week or more ) to prepare for it. Could also throw up a forum poll and see what times are best and have the in-game announcement system tell people to come and vote.

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On 10/10/2019 at 6:47 AM, Daddy said:

lol there were alot of not good players with high ranks cus they only log to sell rp chips or farm and log off. rank doesnt mean skill at all.

 

highest rank i got was holy visage in ASB and i never farmed except for like the last 3 lines. if i farmed i coulda been archangel easily but i hate it.

I suggest higher limit for rank points and these should come mainly through PvP and not mobs farming as indeed players just log in to farm RPs and go off. 

The RPs given should be revised possibly, 100-150k a day and maybe half of the amount shall be given by ranks equivalent/higher than Holy Visage, this way even a player who kills it's own alt to farm RPs quickly would struggle capping.

RP mobs farming has gone for too long under the nose.

Current situation is that players never a lot of players never PvP but they will 100% log in to farm RPs as to cap so far it takes around 20 minutes of your time with mobs.

Player 1: Oh, 'PvP mid amara' 

Player 2: *silence*

Player 1: *goes to RP mobs to check - 'ah you here farming RPs while we shouting for help in PvP - Cabron'. 

 

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