[Let's rebalance underdogs]

As much as I'm in favor of SP changes, you truly want to buff one of the most broken SPs in game, namely warrior? A 90 seconds Iron Skin buff would make an already unbearably strong SP into something that isn't even funny anymore.

[How 6.2 is killing PVE]

2 minutes ago, Nyet said:

Every raid requires teamwork to do as fast as possible?

If you really wanted you could time your hongbi in Fernon to make sure half the team is off CD per blade drop, making the point that Fernon doesn't is just being transfixed on your idea of the raid. In fernon you need to make sure each player has their own alternate and buff themselves, how does any of this only apply to Erenia sorry?

If you really want to do Fernon as fast as possible, build a set for it? I'm a PvP player and have an r8+10 PvE gun which works for Fernon.

I think you need to realise that PvE players aren't any worse off than PvP players, they're losing stats that PvP players never even had? If anything it's more balanced to a wider audience, and I will state for the last time which you have ignored every single time.

Build

A

Different

Trophy

Instead

Of

Res

Reduction.

In no way are PvE players at a higher disadvantage to PvP players. They're more even now and to be honest. If your "PvE" equipment doesn't work universally for other raids that come out, update them, don't make a point that your current set isn't working, like having different sets for FC and Arena you are saying you can't need more than 1 set for different raids.

How about you buy a set that works for Fernon, then if you're still unsatisfied you can complain, at the moment you're using a set that has ZERO correlation to what is good in Fernon and expect to do well in it.

Also I never said it was a fight. You're the one who brought up your family's "status" as if that was meant to add any justification to your ideas of what is wrong with Fernon.

You continuously fail to understand the points I'm bringing to the table to the point that it's getting quite annoying. PvE players are definitely at a major disadvantage in this act because items/options that MERELY serve a PvE purpose have become redundant. 

Let's make this very, very simple:

Before this act, you could still compete in end-tier PvE content even if your set wasn't worth 3kkk. Why? Because with a bit of teamwork, some thinking, some investing in good shells and a bit of patience, you could "master" a specific raid and be quick. With this act, literally the only thing that matters for the end-tier raid is that you have a 3kkk set. Now, you may argue that "better gear should make you a better player" but in a game that is as skill-less and clicky as NosTale, just that little bit of teamwork that was required was nice. This isn't a skilled game at all - it's point and click. Yet the developers of NosTale at times made certain raids somewhat fun and challenging, such as Chicken King (which was very hard when I was a kid) and Fafnir. 

All those factors that could make you a good PVE player in 5.2 or 6.1 have been reduced to ONE single factor that matters: your gear. And more specifically - extremely expensive gear. Fernon, in a sense, is also pay to win.

This is not the fault of Nos VGN - this is mostly to blame on the raid developers. But there are some things that can be done to make this game more attractive to those players that enjoy a bit of work, such as some of the potential solutions that I mentioned in the opening post. Why not stimulate a hard raid? 

[How 6.2 is killing PVE]

1 minute ago, Nyet said:

Firstly, don't kid yourself that Erenia requires skill either. 

You're the one hand picking your teams for Erenia; the exact same is done in Fernon. Also ok? There is a "disadvantage" for PvE players, which I can't even see? There isn't one for PvP players in this raid? Most of the stats from PvE and PvP equipment overlaps. Enhanced damage, critical damage and S-% Damage; all of which YOU would decline players from joining your raid if they lacked and now you're complaining that 1 or 2 stats are redundant?

A weapon skin is beyond cheap; I'm sure 99% of any "PvP" player would have both if they really wanted and don't consider someone PvP just because they go arena sometimes, we're talking higher tier PvP players.

The competition was non-existent, it was just mindless bragging about how fast you can raid, sure you can say you did it faster than other fams. That still applies to fernon? As I said there's posts about it WAY more often then there was Erenia speeds.

Simply put, PvE players are losing 1 useful stat "Damage to evil" PvP players are gaining NO useful stats, they're benefiting from the exact same stats that PvE players now have?

As for shadow stone being useless it still gives crit? As I already said just build another trophy and stop complaining that 1 thing doesn't universally work for everything. If anything since you're such a PvE player you should have more trophies seeing as you do more raids?

Clearly you are tilted about your family's non-existent "status" since it was one of the first things you opened up with, also why bother commenting on the stats being "too high" if you don't want them changed? Doesn't take much to infer the point you were making.

Does Erenia require skill? No.

Does it require skill and teamwork to do as many Erenia raids as possible within an hour? Yes.

Why? Because most of the time that you can "win" is in the segment BEFORE the boss and is not fully dependent on damage. It is also about the right mix of speed, putting the right people at the right spots, making sure people buff at the same time, etc. Sure, it's not rocket science but there certainly is more skill involved than Fernon. 

And sure, perhaps to you it is just mindless bragging, but is arena any different? Aren't we all just looking for a way to be "good" at the game? We all set our own goals. Perhaps to you doing quick raids based on skill is dumb - to me hunting down random players in arena is dumb. Different players, different goals. 

There are also more stats than just Damage to Evil that are being lost, such as Damage to Lower Society and the Property options. Sure, these options do not have major effects but in combination with for example res reduction (which has become redundant), they made a difference. 

6 minutes ago, Nyet said:

Clearly you are tilted about your family's non-existent "status" since it was one of the first things you opened up with, also why bother commenting on the stats being "too high" if you don't want them changed? Doesn't take much to infer the point you were making.

Finally, I'd like you to read the first part of my first post again. This is a discussion, not a fight. Refrain from ad hominems or leave. You're also still completely misunderstanding the point. The stat increase is an issue because it tries to make the raid harder in a way that puts PvE players at even more of a disadvantage. It multiplies the disadvantage that was already created with this raid. Is this an issue that should be solved per se? NO. There are other means to make this game more attractive again for PvE players. But is it a part of the problem? YES. 

[How 6.2 is killing PVE]

20 minutes ago, Nyet said:

How do you need voice chat to succeed in a Fernon raid..? All you would say is "Pull the blade" "Hit the boss" what? LOL I really don't get that at all

None of the stats are too high or the raid wouldn't be completed in like 2 minutes, which you've already said is achieved with just 3 basic stats on your equipment, which if anything makes the raid applicable to more players than not?

It simply isn't a hard raid which I agree with, but you're asking for the stats to be reduced?? That really doesn't make sense to me at all. You can't compare the stats of Erenia to Fernon as you've also stated in your initial argument the time based on Erenia comes from the rooms before the boss where damage doesn't really apply. How in any way would reducing the stats of Fernon be beneficial at all?

The luck / a lot of full pots I can agree with; the meteors are just a joke sometimes where you can't move for about 30 seconds then just die to 2 blades dropping on you at once, however that's pretty much the only thing giving the Fernon raid as current any sort of "difficulty" since especially after 20% Health it's extremely hard to pull the blades without invis being revealed by meteors.

If anything the main points I gain from this is: you're tilted that your fam lost credibility as the "fastest Erenia raiders" or something and that you want the raid to be easier even though it "takes no skill"? It's already extremely easy and profitable, perhaps too profitable to be completely honest, the prices of c45 equipment is pretty ridiculous, however the point of making the raid easier / different doesn't seem to compliment this arguement. If anything you should seek an alternate way to make c45 equipment in a suggestion.

Also were Zenas and Erenia ever any more than a way to make cash? I don't think anyone truly had an obsession with these raids and wanted to be the fastest or whatever you seem to claim. Even if they were, there's constantly new fastest times put in the record book thread for Fernon, if anything it's a more sought after thing to be the fastest in that raid.

Also if the shadow gem is bad for fernon get another trophy ????? It's not as if anyone is forcing you to use just 1, isn't there a trophy specifically for PvE with % damage and some other shit? Pyramid of peace I think? Or just get the archer stone ?? Enh damage and crit? The only one stopping your trophy from being useful is you. You wouldn't use a shadow gem in a 1v1 PvP so why should you expect to use it in every raid?

Nowhere did I ever vouch for a stat reduction of Fernon. Read it again if you can't comprehend. I'm stating that the stat update of Fernon gives a disadvantage to PvE players, which could be solved by the potential solutions I mentioned at the final part of my post. My post consists of a background, problem, solution. It's easy. Was one of my potential solutions "decrease Fernon stats"? No. 

Nowhere did I ever state I want the raid to be easier either. Please read before you post. What I'm seeing is that a certain raid, which is INCREDIBLY easy from a skill point of view is boosted to the point that gear/items that used to be "merely" for PVE players have become useless. Before 6.2, there was quite a clear divide between PvE and PvP items. There are specific weapon skins for PVE and PVP, there are certain trophies that are more useful in PVP and some that are more useful in PVE, there are specific shell options that are more useful in PVE than PVE and vice versa. It's really simple. Yet, with 6.2, that divide was erased. This makes certain items in the game that were meant for PvE players quite useless. What's the point of Shadow Stone even now unless you're fully geared towards full element ganking in arena? A PvE set used to be better in raids because it fully served that purpose. My PvE bow does no damage in arena but it could outdamage most PvP players in raid. Why? Because it was fully geared towards doing so! In Fernon, this doesn't matter. PvE items have lost their purpose. 

Nowhere did I ever state that Zenas and Erenia were more than a way to earn cash for most players. But there was a small bit of competitiveness to them that seems to be lacking in Fernon. Just like a lot of players think arena is useless and dull, you probably think Zenas and Erenia are nothing but a way to earn cash. That does not mean there never was some kind of competition in the past. Just because you haven't felt it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. 

Nowhere did I ever state that I'm tilted that my family lost status - heck, since the release of 6.2 we have honestly only gained in respect rather than lost it. What I'm missing here is that you can achieve something useful through skills rather than gear. That you can compete with other families and feel a sense of achievement when you've earned something through teamwork. Just like some people feel some achievement if they can beat another strong player in PvP, it is nice to feel like you can "outraid" other families through skills. That's the entire point here. 

Two divides have been erased in 6.2:

Skill versus gear

PvE items versus PvP items. 

For the "end-tier" raid of this server, it does not matter if you're good at raiding nor if your set is AIMED towards killing monsters rather than players. This means PvE families have become quite useless. This can be solved by giving new goals to these type of families, some ideas of which I mentioned in the potential solutions part of my first post. 

It's really simple and if you truly think this is a discussion about "Fernon is too hard" then I'd recommend you reading the post again. 

[How 6.2 is killing PVE]

11 minutes ago, 13175 said:

Well, I'm laughing right now about the Fernon part. Let's comment on this:

- You've never done Fernons, so you shouldn't make an opinion on how 'easy it is' (fun fact - you started complaining about her ress and RNG after saying she is easy... Logical.)

- PvP fams are also able to do Zenas/Erenia with this set. And they do as much of them as you do. Your silly 19% DMG to evil doesnt matter so much in both raids.

- Mastering this raid was hard. It tooks some weeks to get enough fast to spam Fernons a lot.

- R8 Shadow Stone gives 7% Crit chance so it isn't useless

- Teamwork is needed. Without voice chat your team won't be as succesfull as with constant talking/informing.

- This raid is supposed to be RNG based so I wouldn't change that (like whole game).

Would you really want to see Fernon spammed by whole server? Isn't it better that the access to end-game equipment is got by only good, cooperated players? I think you wouldn't like to see 45c bows in nb for 20m.

-1

I can agree with scoreboard & reputation points. That would be fun for PvE players.

+1

What makes you state I have never done Fernons? I've spammed quite a lot of them. The raid isn't easy - it is mindless and skill-less. There is a huge difference between strong and hard. Fernon is a STRONG raidboss, not a HARD one. There is nothing interesting about it from a skill point of view because it mostly requires two fingers - one on your skill hotkeys and one on your full pot hotkey. Sure, this is an exaggeration, but let's not act like it's a difficult raid to master once you have the right gear.

You're completely misunderstanding my point. I'm not vouching for easier Fernon raids. I'm vouching for harder Fernon raids that are less based on gear and more on skill. In terms of teamwork, Fernon is among the easiest raids of this server - I'd even rate Chicken King higher because it requires more cooperation and there is more time to be won through decent strategies than Fernon. There is hardly any "mastering" in Fernon - once you've found the right team with the right damage, you're done. There also isn't any point in experimenting with new strategies because it hardly matters - the only "rules" in Fernon are "stay alive" and "maximize damage". 

Besides, nowhere did my post state anything about changing Fernon. I'd even be fine with keeping it the way it is, as long as they will add something that is interesting for players who enjoy teamwork, difficulty and the notion of "practice makes perfect". Also, to state that PvP fams are capable of doing Erenia/Zenas like PvE fams makes no sense at all. Sure, players with good PvP gear won't be HUGE burdens in those raids, but they certainly don't contribute to maximizing it and most players with PvP sets don't deal a lot of damage there. On top of that, most time to be won in those raids is in the areas BEFORE the boss where damage matters less. 

[How 6.2 is killing PVE]

Now, before I start this discussion, I'd first like to ask people to refrain from commenting unless they have something to add to the discussion. I can already foresee comments like "wow you're just crying" which, in my opinion, will not contribute to this discussion at all. Further on, this certainly is NOT critique on NosTale VGN, but rather critique on NosTale in general (although I do believe VGN could have improved this situation). Feel free to agree or disagree, but do so respectfully and with content. Thanks.

Background:

PvE: A lot of people associate it with mindless mobbing/grinding just to get a lot of cash, which can then be spent on more PvE-related items. For me, in the past few months, PvE was about finding ways to do things as efficiently and quickly as possible, most notably raids. To work together with a team, find the right combination of SPs, gear, trophies and strategy to get as many boxes as possible. In 6.1, this was a fun experience. Both Erenia and Zenas can only be done for an hour and the fact that people kept on stating "we did x raids in an hour" made it feel competitive. With the right amount of tweaking and some good communication, your team could outraid another team in the same channel, and just that feeling of achievement made raiding fun for me. The gear you had also gave you an advantage: if you decided to fully aim at PvE, you were capable of increasing your times and therefore also your revenue. 

At the time, this also gave my family Autumn some status. Certainly, I think many players don't care about how many raids you can do in an hour, but it at least made raiding feel even more worthwhile, at least to me. The idea of being capable to somewhat impress other players with good teamwork was lovely and I immensely enjoyed it. We all worked hard to get the necessary items to be quicker - R8 shadow stones, weapon skins, Fibi, the perfect PvE gear... it was and still is fun.

 

6.2: 

When 6.2 was first released, I was quite hyped. I thought our raid experiences would help us a bit to gain somewhat of an advantage, and our PvE gear could make it easier for us to master the new Fernon raid. Moreover, with the release of Fafnir and Yeritrand, the focus of this act seemed to be purely on PvE. When Bash on top of that announced that he would make Fernon harder, I was enthusiastic, because in my mind it seemed to mean that you could only master it with good teamwork and the right gear. 

None of that. Fernon is not a PvE raid nor a skilled one. Teamwork hardly matters as it's literally just about picking up swords and spamming FPs while bashing buttons to kill it as quickly as possible. Now, this certainly isn't an issue created by the VGN team, but I feel like the way they decided to make the raid harder killed the entire PvE element of it. Why?

1) The resistance of Fernon is too high. 

A key PvE item which is kind of useless in end-tier PVP (because everyone has complete res sets) is a Shadow Stone. It would massively increase your damage in Erenia and Zenas because you'd take away a huge batch of resistance from the monsters and therefore you'd be capable of advancing quickly. By increasing Fernon's resistance, Shadow Stone became quite useless in raid.

2) The FP delay makes most of your deaths completely random.

I don't think Fernon requires any skill - it merely requires decent defense, a bit of luck and a lot of full pots. The fact that you have to wait 5 seconds to just pot means that, if you're in the wrong position at the wrong time, you're done for regardless of what you're doing.

3) The increased defense 

Fernon is NOT by any means affected by PvE gear. The only shell stats that actually matter to increase your damage against her are S% to Damage, enhanced damage and preferably critical damage. Every PvP player has these stats. Now, that certainly is not the fault of Bash as Fernon is a raid without any rooms, but by increasing its defense, this means that PvE players are at even more of a disadvantage. A lot of my gear is based around resistance reduction, stats like Damage to Evil and high SLs. Whereas this makes my damage in raids like Erenia very high, it's not the ideal gear for Fernon. Keep in mind that PvP gear is incredibly expensive and usually owned by either resellers or VGN spammers. What I loved about 6.1 is that you could NAIL it with "intelligence" rather than just money. With some cheap shell options, you could increase your damage radically. It took some patience and time to find these options, but once you had them you really felt like it was worth the work/wait. Fernon is pay to win.

Now I FULLY agree that you can still earn a lot of cash with Erenia/Zenas, but this isn't just about cash. It's also about having a sense of achievement. I LOVE the idea of practicing and training in certain ways to come out on top. I love the idea of gaining respect and credits because you're capable of doing something as a family that other families are not capable of. Fernon is the new end-tier raid, Erenia and Zenas merely matter for the cash these days. As petty as this argument may sound, I think respect should be earned and not bought. That is not to say that I think Autumn had this kind of respect or should deserve it - that is to say that I would love to be competitive and battle for that type of respect. 

 

 

Possible solutions:

Fafnir:

It definitely is not the fault of the VGN team that Fernon is such a skill-less raid but there certainly are things that can be done to make this game more attractive for people who are fully focused on PvE. A thing that I proposed in an earlier thread was to make Fafnir more attractive. This raid requires quite a lot of teamwork and skill and is also a lot of fun to master, but currently it is quite useless as the rewards really are not worth the effort. With useful rewards, PvE-oriented players could be at an advantage, especially since gear does not matter in that raid.

 

Untradeable rewards: 

Everything in this game seems to have a price, which is a shame because that means you can gain (almost) anything with little to no effort. Untradeable rewards in certain raids but also other challenges can be fun. I read somewhere that Bash is attempting to implement a family achievement system - this could really make things better. 

 

PvE scoreboards:
I'm not certain if this is possible, but it would be nice to see which team did a certain raid the quickest. Does the server save raid times?

 

Increase the role of reputation:

I should think more about this idea, but most PvE-oriented families have gained a lot of reputation over the times. It would be nice to see some type of rewards linked to it. This could also be a great idea for PvP-oriented players as act 4 will help you in that regard as well.