Eden Eternal Vendetta Awaken (PvP) - Attention to Game Repetition and Class Balance

[Lexs]

2 hours ago, Reikan said:

Sad to see that the topic derailed into these kinds of arguments, really.

Holy Blade hasn't been touched in a while. The game got more base stats, more raw DMG, yet it still multiplies all these bonuses by 200%, which works for 3 skills instead of 1 from Gravity Manipulator. It's only natural that the class scaled up to this point. The -30% DMG taken while on air is only a complaint due to how the class scaled its damage through time, reaching the top charts of DMG dealt.

What i'd adress here is: Is nerfing Holy Blade DMG output going to "solve" the PVP ratio of 8:2 support/DMG? People will always slug fight as much as they can because losing a player is a big loss in a fight. Not so much due to smoke bombs, but it's still an advantage. So whatever people can do to lower DMG taken will be an attractive resource that competitive players won't ever give up on using.

The thing is: Most of the playerbase doesn't enjoy playing supports. Maybe why our PVP numbers are always low. Maybe we don't have popular PVP mechanics because we're forced into using 8:2 or 7:3 setups in order to barely survive. I'm not talking about Garden, SoulBreaker, Stardust. I'm talking about the rest of the potential community that could be joining PVPs but just doesn't bother because they'll have to sacrifice their fun just to sit and press buttons on an unwanted class (may it be Elegant Dancer, Life Worshipper or any other support). Playing support is a style that isn't for everybody, that's why for PVE you only need one, and that's why PVE is still popular.

Adress DMG taken in PVP maps. Nerf the support classes offer of DMG Taken reductions. We need a support overhaul, where each support is there to offer a specific resource that's wanted on a strategy. Maybe the Adjudicator can be the "Jack of all trades" healer, but the rest shouldn't be there just to "add DMG reduction". 

That way, We wouldn't need 8 players focused on reducing the potential of a single Holy Blade (or Mecha, or whatever you guys tell us it's "meta" since it's not really "meta" but "what worked best on your strategies, players and resources"). That way, we'd have more people playing fun DMG or CC classes. Maybe our PVP would have more people interested into gearing up and joining.

Sincerely, a Guild Leader that constantly keeps gearing up people just to see them leave the game because they don't want to play supports.

I guess u just copy the wrong argumment to suigetsu bc yes Hb can hit 3 times in a jump as he said, but GM can hit 2 times in a jump, not 1, and one of the HB hits is phy dmg and even with the jump burst it dont have a big dmg at all like the other 2 mag dmg skills, nothing else to say abt this

[Locsta]

13 minutes ago, Reikan said:

I don't think LW/ED needs nerfs. Just that their contribution to -DMG Taken on PVP shouldn't exist, and instead the PVP maps should have a fixed amount of DMG Reduction. It should solve the 8:2 support:dps problem.

You haven't seen me once in PvP because it is no longer possible for a leader like me to keep players interested into the PVP goal of the game, exactly because I'd have them forced into 8:2 supports for us to be able to even step into a PVP map.

I used to PVP back when we had L120 / L100 Weaps-sets and before Dragonridge Sanctuary existed. We had Celestial and MoneyTeam in the scenario, and BrightShield was often in PVP maps. Not winning, but taking part. Having fun, which is the goal of gaming. The 7:3 or 8:2 ratio for supports:DPS was present but not something needed for a guild to step into a PVP map. It was still possible to walk around as a group without being instantly deleted by a single person.

The DMG of the entire game scaled up, while our ability to defend ourselves without stacking 8 supports didn't.

That's the issue. I'm not interested in winning PVP. I'm interested into bringing new/returning players back into the game scenario, and at the moment the odds of getting these players to stay are very low. We have too many better options of PVE games out there to play. I can't convince people that a game like this (EE on current state) is fun or balanced.

So its just both of us talking lmao

Well your point of not having fun is TW stands regarding how the game is by now. I don't think you have to win to have fun on the game though you can just simply go out in the battlezone and fight. As long that you have a chance to win in a fight that might be fun adding the factors of playing enjoyable classes too. 

I definitely agree when you say that most people prefer to play DPS or Debuffs classes over Healers or supports classes. I remember seeing people forced to play ED/LW against their will quite recently in order to increase their WR.

Also its right that its pretty tough to bring people back on the game in its current state. It does not really attract anyone so far who haven't played yet as just by seeing PvP videos they dont really get attracted. These same videos regarding current PvP wouldn't attract me on the game neither but I enjoy watching old TWs Lv100 cap. The game was way more dynamic.

[Dominic]

Remove Poisonous Powder and Smoke Bombs from PvP, the amount of people abusing these items is absurd. Get that thing out the battlefield 👍👍 also buff conjurer, I cant have fun in a game if im not oneshotting people on sight pressing 2 skills👍

[Locsta]

7 minutes ago, Lexs said:

if u gonna take as example ur HB and my HB to said the class is broken meanwhile other 10 players that tried HB had no impact, it just saying its more abt the players than class, im not saying its a weak class, ofc is strong, but if 2Hb are good and 10Hb not having that impact in game, just prove that is more abt how the player use it, u also had big impact using Asura and it not mean its broken ahaha

Sorry but i cant believe u taking seriously a SARCASTIC comment abt ice AE  Im literally being sarcastic in every comment where i provide ytb links, i even type a face laugh pleaseee help  

I agree that some players have more impact than others even though they play the same class but this wasnt just you one shotting people with Holy Blade. It would of been different if it was really just one guy making it with the class but its not.  Well everyone can't get the sarcasm everytime anyways and it lowkey came out of nowhere LOL

2 minutes ago, Lexs said:

I guess u just copy the wrong argumment to suigetsu bc yes Hb can hit 3 times in a jump as he said, but GM can hit 2 times in a jump, not 1, and one of the HB hits is phy dmg and even with the jump burst it dont have a big dmg at all like the other 2 mag dmg skills, nothing else to say abt this

GM can effectively hit 2 times while having the DMG buff but this rarely happen its not really something you can control at high % like Holy Blade.

 

[Reikan]

16 minutes ago, Locsta said:

GM can effectively hit 2 times while having the DMG buff but this rarely happen its not really something you can control at high % like Holy Blade.

I'll just ignore Lexs commentary since he seems angry at this topic or at us, not sure why.

Gravity Manipulator Air Dance only grants +350% DMG for the next Feather of Lightness/Darkness. The times where it buffs more Feathers is a bug, that only happens when you kill the target with it (The game fails to remove the Air Dance buff). I used to farm gold on Gravity, and I could get 3 buffed Feathers with it. Although, on a PVP scenario, you often won't hitkill your target with it, and even if you do score the kill, you would need to change targets really fast before your character reaches the ground in order to benefit from the "two Feathers Air Dance".

It's not something you can count as a class mechanic. And yeah, you can shoot 3 Feathers in a single Air Dance, but you'll only get the 350% amp in the first one. Hence why the +200% bonus on Destructive Leap is better in the long run.

[Fenril]

@Locsta
I think I understand - more or less - what you're trying to say, but, to be honest, I do believe that Eden's problem is structural. Before we talk about balancing, I think we need to pay attention to which pvp modes are most played (presuming we're talking about pvp, because the m-dps situation in PvE is more related to personal preference and "parties leaders orders" rather than balancing in general; I'll explain it later).

Imo, the most played pvp modes are TW and GvG. TW, by itself, provides no room for testing anything, as it's general consent that you need to have at least 3 supports and 3 healers in your party (and the healers have to clean cc's diligently, cause if its timed correctly, you never get cc'ed for more than 1s, reason why you always see HS, GK and probably ED together). It's essentially team-based pvp, no room for anything else. That said, I'm not surprised that parties intentionally avoid putting more dps's on their setups (or even good and unused classes), 'cause the moment their adversaries realize they have changed the setup, they'll abuse Reaver, Anni, and every cc class possible, forcing the first party mentioned to get back to the usual meta.

Now... if we're going to talk about GvG, things could be different. Some classes that are good and have cool concepts could be used, and I'd encourage people to do so, to try and have fun despite of who's winning and who's losing, but who am I in the grand scheme os things, right? Some classes aren't weak at all, but due to the fact that we have more TW's along the week than we have "skirmish-like pvps such as GvG", people tend to avoid'em. It's not always "Jordan's Fault". Time Manipulator, for example, is a good class. Played correctly, deals a lot of damage and can kite the enemies and help the team, but no one uses it. Battlefield Poet is another decent class. So far, I've only seen Asa using it, and he gets some kills for sure (in TW, imagine what he could do in GvG or smaller skirmishes).

Now, about the PvE issue... I believe it has more to do with "that's how things are, so either you fit in or get out". Sure, some dungeons, like AT/DF, reduces the ammount of cast speed, what severely hurts mages, but only some bosses from AT/DF and CC have true-elemental resists, while all of'em have true-phys-resists and auto-attacks-damage-reduction. What does this means? It means that, in theory, mages should be stronger at AT/DF, if weren't for the cast speed debuff. Jordan explained, in a topic I made, how true-resists works. To this day, people still haven't figured out that is pointless to bring Trainer+Lethal Arrow together, each wearing different -phys resists accessories and trophies, as the bosses true-phys-resist won't allow the resists to go below 10, for example. Sure, Lethal increases the damage dealt by the party, and that is cool, but why not bringing him with full-dps set as well, since he won't be contributing to shred resistances anymore?  But, then again, "that's how things are done here, either you fit in or get out". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Edit]

I have realized that Lethal Arrow doesn't have a +P-Atk with Bow KP-thingy, hence why people won't bring him as a full-dps. Nevertheless, he could always be replaced with another dps, another Anni, Assassin, Asura or even a Blade Master, considering that trophies and accessories (such as TK combos, Zarloe's, Lv100 Blade's, Syntha's, etc) reduces ALL phys-res, not only pierce. The only exception would be on Celeste, from AT, that apparently has an aura that deals tons of damage if you get too close to her and would eventually kill the Meele-DPS. Point is... we're not exactly lacking options. It's just that people don't want to brainstorm and find new ways of doing things. 

[Locsta]

2 hours ago, Fenril said:

@Locsta
I think I understand - more or less - what you're trying to say, but, to be honest, I do believe that Eden's problem is structural. Before we talk about balancing, I think we need to pay attention to which pvp modes are most played (presuming we're talking about pvp, because the m-dps situation in PvE is more related to personal preference and "parties leaders orders" rather than balancing in general; I'll explain it later).

Imo, the most played pvp modes are TW and GvG. TW, by itself, provides no room for testing anything, as it's general consent that you need to have at least 3 supports and 3 healers in your party (and the healers have to clean cc's diligently, cause if its timed correctly, you never get cc'ed for more than 1s, reason why you always see HS, GK and probably ED together). It's essentially team-based pvp, no room for anything else. That said, I'm not surprised that parties intentionally avoid putting more dps's on their setups (or even good and unused classes), 'cause the moment their adversaries realize they have changed the setup, they'll abuse Reaver, Anni, and every cc class possible, forcing the first party mentioned to get back to the usual meta.

Now... if we're going to talk about GvG, things could be different. Some classes that are good and have cool concepts could be used, and I'd encourage people to do so, to try and have fun despite of who's winning and who's losing, but who am I in the grand scheme os things, right? Some classes aren't weak at all, but due to the fact that we have more TW's along the week than we have "skirmish-like pvps such as GvG", people tend to avoid'em. It's not always "Jordan's Fault". Time Manipulator, for example, is a good class. Played correctly, deals a lot of damage and can kite the enemies and help the team, but no one uses it. Battlefield Poet is another decent class. So far, I've only seen Asa using it, and he gets some kills for sure (in TW, imagine what he could do in GvG or smaller skirmishes).

Now, about the PvE issue... I believe it has more to do with "that's how things are, so either you fit in or get out". Sure, some dungeons, like AT/DF, reduces the ammount of cast speed, what severely hurts mages, but only some bosses from AT/DF and CC have true-elemental resists, while all of'em have true-phys-resists and auto-attacks-damage-reduction. What does this means? It means that, in theory, mages should be stronger at AT/DF, if weren't for the cast speed debuff. Jordan explained, in a topic I made, how true-resists works. To this day, people still haven't figured out that is pointless to bring Trainer+Lethal Arrow together, each wearing different -phys resists accessories and trophies, as the bosses true-phys-resist won't allow the resists to go below 10, for example. Sure, Lethal increases the damage dealt by the party, and that is cool, but why not bringing him with full-dps set as well, since he won't be contributing to shred resistances anymore?  But, then again, "that's how things are done here, either you fit in or get out". ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Edit]

I have realized that Lethal Arrow doesn't have a +P-Atk with Bow KP-thingy, hence why people won't bring him as a full-dps. Nevertheless, he could always be replaced with another dps, another Anni, Assassin, Asura or even a Blade Master, considering that trophies and accessories (such as TK combos, Zarloe's, Lv100 Blade's, Syntha's, etc) reduces ALL phys-res, not only pierce. The only exception would be on Celeste, from AT, that apparently has an aura that deals tons of damage if you get too close to her and would eventually kill the Meele-DPS. Point is... we're not exactly lacking options. It's just that people don't want to brainstorm and find new ways of doing things. 

Its definitely not questionable to say that GvGs and TWs are the most played PvP.

You could regardless always try things in PvP as long that you are not being insanely outnumbered. You can quickly see if A build works better than B build but as you pretty much said you might just get caught up by another party running META classes lol. 

A lot of classes used to be better in GvGs over TWs but its not really a thing that much anymore since I've being seeing the sames pt both GvG/TW and I'd agree to say that Time Manipulator is a good class but not really. The class seems to have a really good kit and good stats, triple hit skills, ect but the game makes in sort that it sucks. There is everyone running -DMG Reduction stuff and also too many people have 70 Ice resistance by not trying simply because the game offers you so much free resistances right now. (POD, TW Event, Achievements, Trophies, Guild's Blessing + Cleric Glyph (Proc)). This is already 66 base Ice resistances without mentioning the DMG Taken reductions on the game like Elegant Storm gems lol and then its again harder to deal DMG to someone who is on shield with Swamp King's trophy on lmao. And this is for a class that run no Elemental Resistances KPs so you get the picture this class definitely cant be run by itself despite his good kit but as I said before as many classes this one gets overshined by too much. Don't get me wrong though I think a lot of classes could be played at some point if its ran by a really good player. + Even if you get to -ice res the target by a lot thats still not comparable to what Mecha Ares could do to someone with - fire res lmao (+ there is more way to -fire res on the game than -ice)

I am not going to argue about PvE things I honestly don't really care about that part of the game and Jordan can now make it seperate by adding PVE Stats and PvP Stats

 

 

[Fenril]

7 hours ago, Locsta said:

Its definitely not questionable to say that GvGs and TWs are the most played PvP.

You could regardless always try things in PvP as long that you are not being insanely outnumbered. You can quickly see if A build works better than B build but as you pretty much said you might just get caught up by another party running META classes lol. 

A lot of classes used to be better in GvGs over TWs but its not really a thing that much anymore since I've being seeing the sames pt both GvG/TW and I'd agree to say that Time Manipulator is a good class but not really. The class seems to have a really good kit and good stats, triple hit skills, ect but the game makes in sort that it sucks. There is everyone running -DMG Reduction stuff and also too many people have 70 Ice resistance by not trying simply because the game offers you so much free resistances right now. (POD, TW Event, Achievements, Trophies, Guild's Blessing + Cleric Glyph (Proc)). This is already 66 base Ice resistances without mentioning the DMG Taken reductions on the game like Elegant Storm gems lol and then its again harder to deal DMG to someone who is on shield with Swamp King's trophy on lmao. And this is for a class that run no Elemental Resistances KPs so you get the picture this class definitely cant be run by itself despite his good kit but as I said before as many classes this one gets overshined by too much. Don't get me wrong though I think a lot of classes could be played at some point if its ran by a really good player. + Even if you get to -ice res the target by a lot thats still not comparable to what Mecha Ares could do to someone with - fire res lmao (+ there is more way to -fire res on the game than -ice)

I am not going to argue about PvE things I honestly don't really care about that part of the game and Jordan can now make it seperate by adding PVE Stats and PvP Stats

 

 

I think I get your point. Well... what can I say? Balancing MMORPG's has always been a huge challenge and, so far, there is not a single company that's actually achieved a good balancing state. I played lots and lots of MMORPG's, and even Final Fantasy XIV that is deemed to be "near perfectly balanced" is actually not, according to a lot of players and content creators on YouTube, Reddit, and other social media. It's natural that Vendetta Staff will find this task as challenging as it really is.

Back in cap 95/100, I tried everything I could/had at my disposal to turn my Assassin into a, well, true Assassin. Jordan also helped me a lot with advices on trophies and gems and stuff like that. So, in the end, I made a triple hit build and a P-atk + Triple hit hybrid build. None of those actually worked as I expected. (Meaning that Assassin wouldn't kill no one, except for a Gravity Manipulator every now and then. I even spoke with Noka, who was a great Assassin back in that day, and he told me to just give up hope and play Assassin as a finisher class amongst parties, which is, in my humble opinion, preposterous to say the least, considering how Assassins are in every other mmorpg or even other games as well.)

Nowadays, I'm positive that Assassin's damage has improved (probably thanks to Sagi+Dark Ninja) but still, it's really really hard to kill someone with a full combo. It's as you stated before... stats are really easy to cap now, so, almost everyone have around 50%+ slash-resist, 100% Eva, 40K+Def, DMG-reduc certs and buffs, Silence cert, etc, leading Assassin to the same boring and not-adequate-role of Crystal Capper from 6 years ago (the class name is Assassin, not Miner). But what else can we do?

I can also understand Jordan's reluctance in buffing the class, which can (not necessarily will) raise the number of Assassins in TW/GvG greatly, which may "kill the meta" as we know today and thus infuriate the community. However, I've always concluded that Eden Eternal has too many classes and this leads the game to serious class identity issues, which makes things even harder for Jordan. That said, this is why we've been constantly providing suggestions, in hope that the meta will change, will improve, and "unusable" classes could become usable and everyone could have fun (not to mention reducing Jordan's burden, as he is a human being like us, he needs to sleep, to eat properly, to exercize, to have a normal and beautiful life; if he stays day after day thinking about ways of improving the pvp scenario or balancing specific classes, he might end up missing good moments amongst friends and family; besides, brainstorming [between us, players] could trigger new and good concepts and solutions, right??).

The same applies for Arch-Elementalist, Mecha Ares, etc; But, to be honest, I believe that smaller balancing patches wouldn't hurt us that much and it would be a great way to collect data and imputs on the long road of balancing everything out.

[Locsta]

On 8/19/2023 at 1:07 AM, Fenril said:

I think I get your point. Well... what can I say? Balancing MMORPG's has always been a huge challenge and, so far, there is not a single company that's actually achieved a good balancing state. I played lots and lots of MMORPG's, and even Final Fantasy XIV that is deemed to be "near perfectly balanced" is actually not, according to a lot of players and content creators on YouTube, Reddit, and other social media. It's natural that Vendetta Staff will find this task as challenging as it really is.

Back in cap 95/100, I tried everything I could/had at my disposal to turn my Assassin into a, well, true Assassin. Jordan also helped me a lot with advices on trophies and gems and stuff like that. So, in the end, I made a triple hit build and a P-atk + Triple hit hybrid build. None of those actually worked as I expected. (Meaning that Assassin wouldn't kill no one, except for a Gravity Manipulator every now and then. I even spoke with Noka, who was a great Assassin back in that day, and he told me to just give up hope and play Assassin as a finisher class amongst parties, which is, in my humble opinion, preposterous to say the least, considering how Assassins are in every other mmorpg or even other games as well.)

Nowadays, I'm positive that Assassin's damage has improved (probably thanks to Sagi+Dark Ninja) but still, it's really really hard to kill someone with a full combo. It's as you stated before... stats are really easy to cap now, so, almost everyone have around 50%+ slash-resist, 100% Eva, 40K+Def, DMG-reduc certs and buffs, Silence cert, etc, leading Assassin to the same boring and not-adequate-role of Crystal Capper from 6 years ago (the class name is Assassin, not Miner). But what else can we do?

I can also understand Jordan's reluctance in buffing the class, which can (not necessarily will) raise the number of Assassins in TW/GvG greatly, which may "kill the meta" as we know today and thus infuriate the community. However, I've always concluded that Eden Eternal has too many classes and this leads the game to serious class identity issues, which makes things even harder for Jordan. That said, this is why we've been constantly providing suggestions, in hope that the meta will change, will improve, and "unusable" classes could become usable and everyone could have fun (not to mention reducing Jordan's burden, as he is a human being like us, he needs to sleep, to eat properly, to exercize, to have a normal and beautiful life; if he stays day after day thinking about ways of improving the pvp scenario or balancing specific classes, he might end up missing good moments amongst friends and family; besides, brainstorming [between us, players] could trigger new and good concepts and solutions, right??).

The same applies for Arch-Elementalist, Mecha Ares, etc; But, to be honest, I believe that smaller balancing patches wouldn't hurt us that much and it would be a great way to collect data and imputs on the long road of balancing everything out.

I honestly do not see anything wrong with assasin as it is right now. It still deals pretty good amount of damage and I believe its the best class to cap crystal right now or its really close to annihilator. its not rare to see someone playing assasin and to mention names, I'd say Amaris and Jin still do the job with that class.

imo the simplest way to make a lot of classes better at the same time would be to take a look on how balanced are both DMG Taken and DMG Dealt on the game. lets say if everyone was naturally less tanky and the DMG Dealt increase by the supports classes were lowered then for ex Assasin and pretty much all the others DPS would already be way better but its still playable as it is right now lol

[Fenril]

[I don't know what happened, but the entire structure of my message was damaged, distorted, so I decided to repost it.]

@Locsta

Well, I've finished gemming my set (except for the elemental resistances stones, which do not directly increases Assassin's damage potential that much) and have been testing the damage output in TW, specially, ('cause it's the most available pvp-mode during the week). So far, I've noticed a few things that makes Assassin a lackluster class. They are:

1. This class relies too much on gem procs, certs procs and even Encourage buff + pod buff to actually deal a huge chunk of damage. Nothing wrong with that; with "needing a few requirements in order to do its job", but since gems, certs, etc; have around 1% chance of proc'ing, then, in the end, it's all about the players personal luck, which gives the feeling of "wasted time building a class that does not depends on my ability as a player".  For some people, it's ok if this class just breaks crystals, but for those who actually wanna play the class, it's a shame and it mischaracterizes the class.

2. Considering the ammount of movespeed we have today (and how people are constantly moving in pvp arenas) and how Assassin's skills are executed in-game (in front of him, like skillshots, except for Sprinting Stab, which has a small AoE if you distribute kp's in the respective talent), this class depends heavily on the activation of stun certs and necklace enchantment (be it sleep or knockdown) to be able to hit it's full combo once (imagine what is like trying to hit 2, 3 full combos to kill someone). This class deserves a "fear", "immobilize" or a "huge slow debuff" after using sprinting stab, imo. This won't break the class as people can still swap to a shield, and it would help this class a lot in "at least having an opportunity to do its job". Speaking of Shields...

3. Stats that help countering this class, which are many: Overcapped-Block (and the lack of tools to help break through / so far, what comes to my mind are the strike stone, the demonic cestus and that trophy from Bushi, but if you wear the Demonic Cestus, you lose triple hit hate from the Angelic one, and if you wear Bushi, you also lose a lot of triple hit hate from Sagi), Defense, Evasion, Overcapped-Physical-Resists. So many "barriers" this class needs to overcome in order to shine that enhances the "if you're lucky, then you get a kill, if you're not, you get killed" feeling.

Long story short: too much rng involved, while others classes doesn't depend on rng that much to shine.

I have also tried Kage (Wind Stance), and this class has stun + silence, which helps a lot, but it lacks damage. Before you can finish off your opponent, he starts moving and simply walks away or fight you back. (Let's not forget the ability to swap to a shield after being stunned.)

So... in the end, this is what I call "class identity issue". The class cannot execute its job unless an infinite list of requirements are met, some that aren't even in your control, leading the class to execute another job that clearly does not fit the class "fantasy", "purpose".  I firmly believe that this is part of what's driving people away from the game. Sometimes, they get full hyped to play a class that has caught their attention and either they build it just to realize it's not usable, or people tell them in advance and then they get frustrated and leave the game.

[Locsta]

13 hours ago, Fenril said:

[I don't know what happened, but the entire structure of my message was damaged, distorted, so I decided to repost it.]

@Locsta

Well, I've finished gemming my set (except for the elemental resistances stones, which do not directly increases Assassin's damage potential that much) and have been testing the damage output in TW, specially, ('cause it's the most available pvp-mode during the week). So far, I've noticed a few things that makes Assassin a lackluster class. They are:

1. This class relies too much on gem procs, certs procs and even Encourage buff + pod buff to actually deal a huge chunk of damage. Nothing wrong with that; with "needing a few requirements in order to do its job", but since gems, certs, etc; have around 1% chance of proc'ing, then, in the end, it's all about the players personal luck, which gives the feeling of "wasted time building a class that does not depends on my ability as a player".  For some people, it's ok if this class just breaks crystals, but for those who actually wanna play the class, it's a shame and it mischaracterizes the class.

2. Considering the ammount of movespeed we have today (and how people are constantly moving in pvp arenas) and how Assassin's skills are executed in-game (in front of him, like skillshots, except for Sprinting Stab, which has a small AoE if you distribute kp's in the respective talent), this class depends heavily on the activation of stun certs and necklace enchantment (be it sleep or knockdown) to be able to hit it's full combo once (imagine what is like trying to hit 2, 3 full combos to kill someone). This class deserves a "fear", "immobilize" or a "huge slow debuff" after using sprinting stab, imo. This won't break the class as people can still swap to a shield, and it would help this class a lot in "at least having an opportunity to do its job". Speaking of Shields...

3. Stats that help countering this class, which are many: Overcapped-Block (and the lack of tools to help break through / so far, what comes to my mind are the strike stone, the demonic cestus and that trophy from Bushi, but if you wear the Demonic Cestus, you lose triple hit hate from the Angelic one, and if you wear Bushi, you also lose a lot of triple hit hate from Sagi), Defense, Evasion, Overcapped-Physical-Resists. So many "barriers" this class needs to overcome in order to shine that enhances the "if you're lucky, then you get a kill, if you're not, you get killed" feeling.

Long story short: too much rng involved, while others classes doesn't depend on rng that much to shine.

I have also tried Kage (Wind Stance), and this class has stun + silence, which helps a lot, but it lacks damage. Before you can finish off your opponent, he starts moving and simply walks away or fight you back. (Let's not forget the ability to swap to a shield after being stunned.)

So... in the end, this is what I call "class identity issue". The class cannot execute its job unless an infinite list of requirements are met, some that aren't even in your control, leading the class to execute another job that clearly does not fit the class "fantasy", "purpose".  I firmly believe that this is part of what's driving people away from the game. Sometimes, they get full hyped to play a class that has caught their attention and either they build it just to realize it's not usable, or people tell them in advance and then they get frustrated and leave the game.

Some classes would probably never stand a chance in PvP unless its reworked (exe/druid, ect). I've seen some players try Rifleteer but same than Assasin this is not really the class (beside capping) to play but someone could still make it work, less effective but more fun i guess. its either leaving Assasin as it is and I did almost get one shot by iMiko's Assasin during yesteday TW lol

Having a fear or stun on assasin would really make it so good (I think something similar to the stun on thief (Deadly Containment)) and I don't think it'd be insanely broken as it'd still be a running around type of class but pretty good to catch people with it. The fact that everyone have move speed capped or almost is also role playing and not fun lol any class with move speed buffs could really outrun you lol even me on AE (with move speed buff) i reach around 180% move speed with no wizzards boots or racial skill on. (200% when I use Ixnas) and this is with not really sacrifying anything. (the tankiness difference with Move SPD pet compared to DMG Taken is noticeable)

for the block stat, I think it'd be so good to have the cap lowered at 35-40% to have less RGN on the game overall even though we have there is many ways to lower block on the game that still wouldn't kill the game because someone with 0% block is still not guaranteed to die but I think that should come with a work on DMG Taken and DMG Increase on the game or its just going to be everyone getting killed too fast and also having all the stats in PvP maps lowered (Sakura Island, GvG/Territory Wars/BG/GA) something like -10% all attack/magic/defense stats (Cast SPD/ACC/EVA, ... Not really Including M-ATK and P-ATK) and -10% All core stats (AGI, WIS, LCK, INT and STR) would make people sacrify x item for x stat. 

So Assasin and many others classes would be better without really having to change anything if these examples upthere were applied on the game (most likely the block and work on DMG lol)

I'm guessing you are an Assasin enjoyer for the few times I caught you playing it in TW but there are way worse classes than Assasin on the game right now and I would say the same for Arch-Elementalist honestly lol but for example Arch-Elementalist on Ice Stance would already have more impact just by having the stats lowered on the game)

so many stuffs have been implemented to give out free stats and dmg that everything just stacked overtime and now the game ended like this.

think we should close it here and just wait and see whats the next PvP Patch about.

ps honestly this conversation will not lead to anything lol just adress Jordan for any concern you might have even though I think pretty much everything have been said but now this is just use running in circle.