Something similar was done, stuns were removed from pulls and it basically hog tied the Whipper into being unable to do anything. People got pulled sure, but they just walked away unharmed 95% of the time. We can not fully take the stuns away, this just didnt work before and will not work this time. Perhaps as I said before all stun durations need to be revised, but you cant simply take their stuns away. It is the only thing they have in order to keep you near for any time at all to do any real damage. Personally speaking if game mechanics allowed (which a lot is source controlled) the best mechanic would be a check to see if you are stunned and wouldn't allow a new stun to apply on top of essentially extending to your stun length for a period of time after last stun duration. Sadly a lot of this is out of our control due to source code. So deleting a whipper stun just isn't a solution that will work as it has been done before.

Exactly, and well spoken. We do need to encourage new players to stick it out. We need to be a good influence on them and good advice.

Yes I understand and I agree with you that we need to be cautious what all large scale changes are made. This post you made I am happy to hear your opinion and take on the issues. This is a much better way to deal with it and to respectfully counter the issues. You are correct that we have to live with and adapt to the changes made. Some of the changes are hopefully and usually done with the best intentions, just some have possible side affects. However your statement makes the most sense, that whatever changes are made they are hard at first to adapt to or get used to. People tend to get so stuck in a habit of exactly what they expect and so any change even a minor one is sometimes very difficult to deal with. Thank you for this post it brings into light some of the issues GS and GM have to deal with in any modifications. Like you said can't please everyone, but striving to keep as many happy is the goal no matter how difficult it is.

@Versteckt While that sounds like a good idea. It would be discriminatory to do that and cut out a possible voice on the subject. I just suggest we attempt to remain calm and not let anyone get to us in order to maintain a healthy discussion. Turn the other cheek I guess they say lol.

@QueenPepper My comments were not directed directly at you but in general. However that type of attitude saying that if anything happens it wont be nice isn't called for. I agree I do not think anything should be majorly modified in regards to the WH myself either, but there isn't a lot you personally could do to stop or help anything of the sort happen. So if there was an idle threat of it won't be nice doesn't solve anything here. It is just negativity in general. If someone has an opinion on what is wrong, then the best course is to debate and negate that opinion with your observations or opinions. It is always taken more seriously if you can point out the flaws in someone's observations with your own, than it is to just to argue, fuss and fight about it. Since you are a WH and honestly one of the best and longest playing ones right now, your valid data and opinion on this is something that would be taken more seriously if you do it in a positive and non attack based stance is what I am getting at.

Ok everyone lets keep this conversation clean and no flaming or name calling. I dont want to have to lock this thread due to it getting out of hand. Lets keep this positive please, we all have opinions on what is best or what is wrong. Lets keep this in mind as we explore the topic.

I agree with @Tygress right now the Whipper is fairly balanced I think the problem lies in stuns over all for all classes are too long. Between distance and stuns people just dont survive. Which is why I would argue your completely wrong @Versteckt the Punisher currently is one of the most unbalanced classes. Your tankiness for being a DPS class is way too high when you add in your overall damage. A ranger esk type class should sacrifice being hurt for being able to hurt. This isnt the case right now for the PU, I have seen a PU take 6-8 people sometimes to kill meanwhile he has annihilated 5. So I have to argue that WH can actually be a little squishier at times than even your own class. WH is supposed to be a tank or off tank as we used to call a class like them. PU isnt supposed to be a tank or in the front lines, however watch PVP and see where the PU are positioned. Their nearly upfront with all the tanks or in some cases are upfront. There is not much downside in a PU, they can drop cocoons, buff and debuff, go firing squad and mech and destroy the enemy. Then drop firing squad and even bike away. See I would argue PU needs to lose some of their tankiness (eva) or damage. Perhaps both as well as firing squad needs to not be a cancelable skill, it should be a risk versus reward skill. You should be stuck in your firing squad til the timer allows your movement.

Just cause faction change and AK lowered numbers wasn't dont at the same time doesnt mean it is a good or bad solution. Plus it is an opinion, plus to do faction changes is not exactly an easy procedure, nor is constantly updating the numbers there would have to be significant tracking done. This is just more overhead on the game staff specially Vivi and Bash. See we keep looking at using bandages to fix things rather than a cure. The cure is more people and loyal ones that feel like a family feel they belong. We can all day add numbers or subtract them or faction change til the hard drives crash. It isnt a solution that is long term and in fact in many games that suffered the same issues that we face server merges server splits faction changes this has always shown to be a system that just doesnt do all that much good if any at all. I can see how you would think that it would work, but sadly the moment someone that is needed in the AK DC or crash then that faction will suffer and I feel that it will hurt FK more so.. If your already hurting when you lose a key member or two and that spot is filled with someone else, it all goes down hill. I am not thinking from an RG perspective here I am putting myself more in the shoes of the FK if anything but I am trying to stay in the middle and neutral. I just see serious failure from this as it happened before here and other games I have played. I know I am beating a dead horse here but the solution lies in what I have said before get the players that have left or taking long hiatus back, or train and recruit new people. New friends or those newbies that are out there I see them.. Yes they exist, I have seen shouts from both FK and RG newbies asking questions and needing help. I help as many as I can, but I am just one person.

Still this is the same issue just explained out differently it doesnt solve the issue. Why would people switch sides back and forth and get frustrated not getting in or DC and cant get back in. Then they FC to help balance this has time and again shown to not work. So why would they FC just to get the AL number raised to then end up in the same boat again. This still is trying to work around the problem and not work the problem. The problem is numbers at that time of day or night for that faction. It is all about those time zones I can guarantee if you had a game that was only 1 country ever playing you would not end up with these type issues, unfortunately this is a international game. So we are stuck with the time zone issue that puts one faction at a disadvantage at certain times. People tend to flock together they do not wanna play alone. So then what is the solution? Well it is simple but also hard. You have to recruit players for that time zone to play on that faction. I know easier said than done, but this is the end all solution. You just need to help the people that are struggling to help you. I often see new players just not get the help they might need. I have personally spent hours upon hours helping newbies and spent more gold than I can or want to admit helping them. If more of this was to take place and those lower geared or lower levels felt needed and appreciate rather than ran over or over looked this would help. There is an army, their just not geared, leveled or trained. If they feel part of a faction part of a family they will end up loyal. So it comes back full circle to the only true solution, the players must bond together as a faction and make it grow. I have played SB from the earliest of days and have seen the times when FK was dominate and when RG was dominate. I have also seen that the time zones also dictated this highly. It is still true today too, just a slight lesser degree due to player base. This is what needs to be the main focus, the player base and helping them grow with you. Not trying to band-aid fix things that will only fester the wound more.

But some do not know all the alts or they hide so as a FK can you see every spot in RG base? Sadly no nor can RG. So seeing that Sand is in both sides you have to rival them and also know both of your main names... Some ppl have access to other players accts too. So then it comes down to IP address checking. It is a much more complicated issue than it seems. Yes and dual logging can get you banned specially if you abuse this over n over again. The problem is they still dont learn from it, I will not name any names here but there is many ppl that have gotten a temp ban and went right back to their offensive habits. Also not everyone records, so now your asking the community to be recording every AK cause who is gonna be there 24/7 like you said. Also lets say you was the one that recorded and only you would this prove that someone had a RG n FK one hiding some place? Probably not, also you would not see the entire map at all times to know what is going on. This is even hard for us GS even when there would be 2 FK n 2 RG on in a single AK. Great idea that people can report and video, just who is capable? Some peoples machines lag just playing SB let alone running a recording software or their harddrive speed and space. I like that idea make players responsible which they should be. We are adults we should know right from wrong, but sadly adults are just like kids we push the limits to see how far we can go too lol. As adults we also can take matters into our own hands which is why I suggest a longer term plan, get the faction to love each other and want to better their faction. Get them to want to grow as a faction and as a team.

That would be nice unfortunately most of that is out of scope of what can and cant be controlled. I do rather like that idea that it could scale.

That is what we are proposing here 20-25 is as low as it was before... Lower it to 40 sure that isnt as low but cutting in half is just the same issue on a different date and time. Problem is they can still switch in the middle regardless, just might risk no spot. Or wait for a DC and take a spot then what? Same issue... The problem with reporting to a GS is that it is one after the fact... So just banning means less players. As much as it might be a shock to players, GS dont like to Ban people. It is an option we take very seriously, we dont just go clicking that button all the time nilly willy. Plus we need the proper proof in order to really act upon that, and doing it afterwards just lowers the player base for even that week or two, it also doesnt solve the fact that, the BG in question had an issue. Yes I know we can not be there 24/7 and yes that indeed is an issue. Just taking a players word for who AFK'd or who dual logged is not an option, there has to be enough proof and that isnt a bannable offense in the beginning there needs to be a history of repeated abuse of this. This is why we have the ability to kick first to get rid of those afk and allow others to enter or to in a sense warn players. Sadly many players that have been kicked just come back and repeat this again. Same with people that have been banned they come back and back to their old habits. So a ban or a kick is not a full on solution either, there is some that just do not learn from this. Players can solve the balance problem, just that most are too unwilling to put in the time or effort. Make an alt on that side that needs help, switch faction and do not switch back, help people with gear, with levels, with advice. Keep those new players in game give them reason to feel useful and wanted. Get friends that have left the game to return, get new friends to start playing. These are much better long term options.... All comes back to Band Together as a faction.

Sadly 90-95% of this is also invalid though, not all GS have alts on the other side to join NB or AK. Nor do many of us care about loot. I personally can take or leave the loot. Yeah I like to get something useful or needed, but I have more stuff now that I even remember I have. It is still an issue of a GS being DCed and unable to get back in. It has happened before for several of the GS in the past. Lowering the AK numbers just will not solve this issue. It was done before and it caused more problems than it attempted to solve. Again it comes down to two factors and only two. The time zone issue and the fact people are not willing to stand behind their faction. They desert and go to their alts for loot or they just simply leave or do not show at all. I think people just fail to remember the issues this brought in when the numbers were lowered last time. So again it comes to my advice get people to stick together, get them to help one another. Help the lowbies level up, help them with gear or advice anything you can in order to get your faction numbers up. I dont want this next comment to sound like there is no help coming from one side or the other, but I have noticed that one side specially certain people are more than willing to help the lowbies out in advice or leveling something than the other. @Sand I know you have personally helped a lot of people on both RG and FK side it is very commendable. Helping with gear, advice leveling... This is precisely what is needed, if more people helped like this then there would be less new players that quit so quickly and there would no shortage of players, more so an influx and we would have people waiting to get into these BG's due to having too many. See again it comes down to the grind for players or the trying to catch up to the end gamers. If we all pitched in and did some work to help them, I know it is not fun sitting there all the time helping and you feel your the only one. Well speak up to your fellow faction if you feel your the only one doing most of this type of work.

Problem is people still can multi-log with multiple PC or same PC. There is ways around it always. The fact is people get their spirits down or crushed and then they feel there is no use trying. So then they often times switch for loot. This is the real issue, people dont like to lose and I understand that. But you can not win all the time and switching sides doesnt solve the issue either, in fact exacerbates it more. The two biggest issues is time zones and players not wanting to band together. If players truly want more pvp or better/even pvp they have to be the solution not the problem. Something like you did move to the other side to even things out is a step in the correct direction. The next thing people need to do is not desert your faction if your not winning motivate others to help. Do whatever it takes to garner interest in your cause, help them level, perhaps help the under geared as much as you can. Give them reason to want to join the fight... I know is isnt just one persons responsibility, but it has to start somewhere. If more people banded together rather than bicker or fight, then nothing is impossible. It is only impossible when nothing is done or you give up. So my advice to any faction suffering during any time zone... Stick to each other like glue. Band together after all your a faction, you should stand behind each other.

Who would be responsible like this though? Who would voluntarily leave with perhaps very little hope to get back in? As for changing the dynamics some of that is locked to the map. Stats of mobs can be changed for sure. Just the mechanics is more locked in that map.