Locsta Posted June 16, 2023 Report Share Posted June 16, 2023 Dear fellow gamers, I wanted to share my opinion regarding the current state of the game, which, in my view, has become excessively repetitive due to the prevalence of the same classes being played for years now, such as the Berserker, Master Fencer, Dragon Emperor, Time Manipulator... This repetition has made the game feel monotonous and significantly less enjoyable to play. Furthermore, I would like to address the nerf to the Arch-Elementalist class. I understand that this class was incredibly strong and a prominent part of the metagame. However, it provided the ability to hold its ground even in unfavorable situations. While a nerf was necessary, it rendered the Lightning stance completely ineffective in PvP due to its lack of damage output. In contrast, the Holy Blade, another class commonly seen in PvP, remains untouched. This class possesses significant power, capable of easily one-shotting players even with their resistance capped at maximum. I believe the class has an excessively powerful kit, particularly with the combination of damage taken reduction while airborne and the additional 200-250% damage increase. I would like to add to that my opinion on PvP as such. I find that PvP has become very boring and repetitive for a long time now, because the fights last far too long and the Smoke Bombs have too much impact on the game, that is, as soon as someone dies, it will be automatically reissued (This reduces the chances of being around 0 for a numerically inferior guild to win a fight) It is crucial for the game developers to address the issue of class balance and strive for a more diverse and engaging gameplay experience. By ensuring that various classes are equally viable and preventing the dominance of a few overpowered options, we can restore excitement and prevent the game from becoming stale. I wanted to share my feelings because many people leave my opinion. I encourage all players to express their thoughts constructively and engage in discussions with the game's developers. Together, we can contribute to a healthier and more enjoyable gaming environment. [Locsta] 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted June 17, 2023 Report Share Posted June 17, 2023 The issue on Arch-Elementalist is that the Lightning Instance was basically a Holy Blade on a 25m AoE. A single Arch-Elementalist could wipe off entire teams depending on which procs happened between its combos. Holy Blade, as powerful as it is, isn't capable of doing the same. Agreed on smoke bombs (and Engineer pots). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted June 17, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 17, 2023 Thank you for answering, it’s always good to share our opinions. I just want to go back to where you said the Arch-Elementalist was a Holy Blade with 25 aoe, as an Arch-Elementalist player, I disagree with this statement. Say that Arch-Elementalist is a Holy Blade on 25 meters mean that it has Holy's Blade damage but spaced on 25 meters which is not true. Holy Blade does more damage since the AE's first nerf which was about Magic's Burst granting less M-ATK and Thunder Stance also granting less DMG %. The class was very strong because several AE played in a single group which left a lot of damage. But only 1 AE can't wipe a party by itself. There's been some of situations where 1 AE did wipe "a party" because that party was not really made for PvP. I saw for example Party A with 2-4 AEs getting wiped (or dealing less damage) by Party B with 1-2 AE. (In terms of damage Party A shoulzd deal more damage.) However, I think that the class was still very strong because played with several, it was essential but I think it should still get reworked on the Thunder Storm/Lightning Stance or something should be added to deal more damage or lower resistance. The fire mode is still usable but I find it a shame to leave Thunder Stance for dead. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VGN GM Jordan Posted June 19, 2023 VGN GM Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 On 6/17/2023 at 12:24 AM, Locsta said: I wanted to share my opinion regarding the current state of the game, which, in my view, has become excessively repetitive due to the prevalence of the same classes being played for years now, such as the Berserker, Master Fencer, Dragon Emperor, Time Manipulator... This repetition has made the game feel monotonous and significantly less enjoyable to play. Arch-Elementalist has been pretty much the main meta PvP class since February 2021 (When it was reworked). If it is no longer meta after Patch 112 that would mean the gameplay for the last few years has been monotonous for over 2 years because of Arch-Elementalist. I also don't recall seeing Dragon Emperor in the meta for several years and Time Manipulator has barely ever been meta since I played. So I'm not sure where this being played for years now comes from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted June 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 I apologize, I just reread my topic and I just realized that I accidentally said that these classes were played when I wanted to say that the classes I mentionned were not played at all, in PvP. Arch-Elementalist has effectively been the strongest DPS class since it got reworked which made the game very monotome because it was almost the only class to shine. I think the nerf is justified, even if this class leaving possible to do 10v20 at some point which actually kept the game atleast a little bit enjoyable to play since the recent PvP scenario has pretty much been Stardust vs Garden with Stardust being outnumbered most of the times to not say everytime. So I think bringing in other classes by giving them a signifcative BUFF can make the game less monotome by having a larger pick of classes to PvP. I am thinking of Master Fencer, Dragon Emperor, Druid, Berserker (which recently got nerfed while the class was no where played), Gravity Manipulator (Does really no damage compared to Holy Blade), Blade Acrobat I don’t think these classes are disastrous, but physical classes haven’t been a success for a while, because they are preceded by the magic classes, (mainly, if not only Holy Blade and Mecha Ares since the AE nerf). I apologize again for my mistake in my previous remarks. [Locsta] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VGN GM Jordan Posted June 19, 2023 VGN GM Report Share Posted June 19, 2023 Well it's a slow process in buffing / nerfing classes. With the newest features I added to the game to divide effects based on PvE and PvP I have slowely been working on classes in the background to improve their playability in PvP / PvE as before this was added to the game it was hard with some classes to make them balanced in both modes of the game without being too strong in one or the other. The changes in Patch 112 where aimed at making classes more viable in both PvE and PvP with Demon Summoner and Demon Tamer balanced around both modes and tested as such. Based on my own predictions on the changes outside of people not trying to make Time Manipulator work this class in theory should be perfectly usable in PvP as it stands. The same could be said for both Demon Tamer and Demon Summoner too. What you guys need to remember is that I can do 100's of changes to every single class and nothing changing. Because at the end of the day just because I know a class in theory is perfectly balanced doesn't mean that in practice that it works. Unless you guys put the time into a class and give me experienced feedback or videos of gameplay on why something doesn't quite work out then what else can I do other than make it clearly overpowered and then once everyone complains its too strong nerf it until people complain again. There is a lot of hidden gems in my opinion that would work quite well in PvE and PvP but nobody has tried to it so nobody knows how strong it actually is. One thing to note however. The Beserker nerf was aimed specifically at PvE as the class doesn't really have any PvP / PvE split mechanics as of the moment. There will be changes made in the future for this class but as its been PvE meta for several years now it was important to nerf for the sake of the PvE meta. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 8, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 8, 2023 After a mure reflection, me and some others people I been talking to concluded that the issue right now are not the classes such as the ones I mentionned earlier (DE, MF...) but it is on one hand some classes that overshine the others and this happen because these same classes (Mecha Ares and Holy Blade) gain too much DMG Buff from support classes. (ED/LW) I will just point out what is currently happening on the game and suggest ideas to change that. So every parties run ED/LW right now and if you do not run these in your party, you're lowering your chance of win rate by a lot in a teamfight. These classes simply decrease the DMG Taken and also the increase DMG by too much. Getting 1 hit is pretty much common right now even if you have 70 Elemental Resistances which happen very often now lol. You pretty much have a low win rate chance if you do not run ED LW in your party because these classes buff too much DMG plus DMG Taken Reduction. Lets firstly take a look on Elegant Dancer/Life Worshipper. These following buffs are the one buffing that make the party overtanky unless both Party A and B run ED/LW because of the DMG buffs. The best way to kill eachother would be both parties running ED/LW or one of these party is just not going to be able to do much. To note that you cant either kill the other party if you do not run Holy Blade and Mecha Ares in your party. These 2 classes just overshine all the others in terms of DMG. // Song of Light and Forceful Rythm are the skill from Life Worshipper. Both Elegant Dancer and Life Worshipper are fair class until its put together which make the combo class too strong increasing your DMG Taken by a lot plus increasing your DMG by also, a lot. Here a normal party nowadays that work pretty well. As you can see there is 8 Supports and 2 DPS. AE and Annihilator here are just ran to increase the Mecha Ares DMG. I guess both can still deal some damage but they're really just mainly used to increase Mecha Ares DMG. On the other hand, it is too easy to cap some stats on the game right now so everyone can afford to focus on just being more tanky even now some healers run DMG Taken reduction pet prayers now because its too easy to cap stats (Cast SPD/ATK SPD/ACC/M-Crit Rate/P-Crit Rate/Block/Parry) Everyone can legit run every double hit and triple hits towers gems + using Elegant Storm gems on the body and still be chilling with resistances plus the fact that we dont need to run resistances gems other than Holy and Fire which release a lot of slot. To make a clear suggestion, what could help is considerably nerfing Concert Buff and also slighlty nerf Mecha Ares/Holy Blade. (Lowering DMG % Buff is probably the easiest way to go) On my third hand lol I'm bringing Arch-Elementalist again as I think its not a secret that I'm an AE enjoyer and mage class is actually a type of class famous on every MMORPG and I find it shameful that the class is left to being not good enough. I'd like to state that the class can only be used as a support right now (Fire Mode for - Fire res) and the 3 others stances are left being not worth to play in a party. The closest usable stance to deal DMG is the Ice one but its still not enough to compete vs others DPS classes. (Even though Ice Stance have a DEF +7% Passive but still deal most damage due to the glyph which increase artic storm DMG +15%) I've been thinking of what could be done to make the class slightly better. Ice Stance * The skill here that could be changed is Ice Bombardment and could be turned into an instant skill double hit DMG with the debuff effect untouched and with a cooldown of 3 or 4s because you simply waste too much time stacking the debuffs as they get removed really quickly plus the fact that it does not deal any DMG. Thunder Stance * The skills that could be changed here are Thunderstorm who could be buffed back to a double hit/triple hit but nerfing the range and Lightning Bombardment where the animation of the skill could be changed to the same one of Wind Bombardment from Wind Stance. These changes will definitely not make it THE CLASS to play but just playable again. Another way to increase every stance at once is reverting the nerf on Magic Burst. To note that classes like AE/DE/MF/BP/TM/AOJ/ASURA/BA... could be better if all the things I mentionned here (ED/LW and Stats being too high) are taken into account. The last option for AE would be to revert it to how it used to be before the big rework. To show more in detail heres 2 old TW of what AE could do before its rework. Back in, the class was neither too weak or too powerful as I've seen many people trying to play it but then give up for others classes. In my opinion it was the most interesting AE with its differents KP setup, skills had combo DMG with others like DE does. * By now, the class would probably be a little bit too strong if it was just reverted to how it used to be with all the new DMG increase and buffs/stats we have on the game right now. in my opinion this is what a party setup should be looking alike with many differents classes and not 8 supports lol. (check the video) Most fun and hardest version on AE imo Also, there is a lot of people who share my opinion but no one like to make any post because of how childish this community is, we're just sharing opinions but for some people we might be trying to make the game go in our advantage lol. Anyways, everyone is welcome to react and also give your opinion about all of this. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic Posted August 8, 2023 Report Share Posted August 8, 2023 Buff conjurer, i should be able to delete people on sight just like current HB does 👍 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VGN GM Jordan Posted August 9, 2023 VGN GM Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 23 hours ago, Locsta said: in my opinion this is what a party setup should be looking alike with many differents classes and not 8 supports lol. (check the video) Just to cover this egregious comment first as it stood out as the most naive of the bunch. The first video (I skipped to around 5:35 where the party was full). The party consisted of Arch-Elementalist, Blade Acrobat, Holy Sage, Glacial Knight, Celestial Arrow, Master Fencer, Mecha Ares, Adjudicator, Shielder and Reaver. Based on the following I would say this party is also 8:2 on support to dps. The for video number 2 (I skipped to around 34 seconds). The party consisted of Arch-Elementalist, Glacial Knight, Holy Sage, Conjurer, Celestial Arrow, Mecha Ares, Reaver, Adjudicator, Equilibrian and Battlefield Poet. With me giving benefit of the doubt in which you should really be using Battlefield Poet as a damage source, thats still 7:3. Just because there isn't any duplicate classes doesn't mean that this is good examples of what a party setup should look like lol. --- As for the comments towards the meta damage dealers. There isn't really anything wrong with Mecha Ares for a start because that class was the meta up until the Arch-Elementalist rework. So it's only natural that while everyone now claims Arch-Elementalist is unplayable it would take it's place at the table again. Especially since Mecha is a class that hasn't really been balanced changed for several years (From the looks of it, it was Patch v60 the last change back in February 2020). Holy Blade on the other hand I have been keeping an eye on because it has been creeping into the spotlight over time. I'm very hesitant to nerf this class however, as out of all the classes in the game this is the one I'm the least familiar. So I will be looking into this class as soon as possible. --- As for Life Worshipper and Elegant Dancer I do find this situation very funny. These classes have been in a similar state since the original rework. They recieved several buffs in Patch v82 (May 2021) to make them viable. Which means when Arch-Elementalist was at its strongest having 5-6 of them in a party at once, this was a completely viable class combination. Yet nobody used them, so that either tells me that it was a hidden OP (which wasn't hidden very well) or theres nothing wrong with it and people are just branching out into other strategies. Quite honestly I would argue the fact that you haven't made reference to Holy Sage in this post quite shocking to be honest. Lets look at the listed effects you listed: Reduced Enemy CRIT Rates. DMG Taken -15% for 7 seconds with single time 15% recovery (Cooldown 8 seconds, so almost 100% up time). Debuff Removal x8 every 15 seconds (Assuming you have a brain and use the quite clearly obvious choice Class Talent). DMG Taken -50% for 4 seconds (Cooldown is 15 seconds, so just over 25% up time, requires good timing). P-ATK +20% (Mislisted on the Forceful Rhythm song) Resistances +5 pts, CRIT +5%. DMG Dealt 10%, ATK +20%, CRIT +5%. Mana Drain (So mana upkeep is important). Now looking at Holy Sage (Specifically talking about the DMG Aura since if you where to replace ED with another support class this would be the most viable candidate): DMG Taken -15% permenant. Debuff Removal x8 every 5 seconds (so across the same time period is 24 buffs removed). ATK +15%, CRIT +10%, Move SPD +10% (Providing you have the KP). Knockdown Immunity Effectively no mana cost (20 points). So at first glance you might think, well list 1 is bigger than list 2 and yeh your not wrong. But list 1 requires 2 classes with much more importance on cooldown timing and mana and is rewarded for these hardships which list 2 is given all these benefits for free with no counter play. The only counter to list 2 is kill the Holy Sage. The counters to list 1 contain buff removal, mana drain, pushing them apart, CC locking the ED before it can use its core spell and ofc killing one of them (probably more value killing the ED). I think the core arguement in my opinion is would you rather have the slot in party taken by an ED which grants your core DPS +10% DMG, some crit and 40% P-ATK / 20% M-ATK. Or would you rather have an equal DPS in the party providing what can only be quantified as double damage since 2 people attacking at the same time. Well thats a decision that you can only make, I personally would diversify my damage profile with another damage dealer so if they focus down the main damage dealer the party isn't just useless. End of the day, I'm not guna even discuss nerfing these 2 classes in combination unless people are willing to hold other classes to account for being too strong. These classes (specifically ED) has not been played outside of 25 man raids for several years, I'm not about to nerf it just because people have suddenly started playing it when what it provides for taking up 2 party slots is a bit of DMG Dealt and attack stats. Stuff that other classes already provide solo (Like Annihilator for example). --- I want to thank your for your information. I will look into Arch-Elementalist even though I think people are being a bit dramatic over its nerfs and I will be looking into Holy Blade (Not really because of this post but this post kinda makes the case stronger on why it needs to be looked into). I will not be touching ED or LW as of the moment as there is in my opinion a lot more wrong with other classes than these 2 classes. The only considerably broken thing about these 2 classes is a buff with just over 25% up time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSuigetsuux Posted August 9, 2023 Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 Hello, Addressing classes individually: Mecha seems fine, it is the same class we had during AE era, in the past AE was stronger, therefore there was no point in using it. The class seems stronger now because AE is unplayable as main dps and we added LW ED combo which boosts its damage while in the past we would simply add more AEs (main reason it was fun and everybody wanted to enjoy the pvp playing it). But realising the tankiness they provide, similar to now against HB, we could've surely benefitted from the combo when we were 2 AEs facing Garden's 8 AEs. Overall Mecha Ares is not overpowered, mainly because of how easy it is to remove its buffs and armor which causes the class to be weak until you get the next chance to acquire your Bulwark once again. AE is not usable on lightning but other stances do damage, changes should be focused on Lightning Stance rather than Magic Burst, we probably still wouldn't use since it was triple hit before and only Losque was using it to be honest, the first nerf was enough to make the server go from 25 AE players to one. However if you are truly seeking for variety there are some changes that could bring both Nature and Ice stance to pvp, rendering Lightning Stance for PVE as it was stated to be the focus on its rework patch, and the other stances for PVP. Even though I also was AE main and miss playing the class, I definitely enjoy having different metas across time, instead of just playing the same class forever, accordingly having Lightning Stance for a pve environment and we use the others in pvp can be a good idea. Although some slight modifications are needed in Nature and Ice departments for this to succesfully happen. Last reminder that as you mentioned we only focus on holy / fire resistances, consequently forcing players to care about two new types of resistances. Holy Blade's controversial aspect is that you can make a party with only one main dps and you will still wipe. In the past if you ran more healers you simply would lack dps output. Which is not really an issue now since the class can oneshot targets without any swaps required, base build. I don't really understand why a main dps class has -30% dmg taken basically always, he's almost a BK in pve. I also don't see why GM was nerfed when it was already weaker per hit than HB, and HB does 3 hits per jump while GM does only 1. Holy Blade magical dmg augmentation on jump is simply too high, plus the base matk is way higher on HB than AE or any other class. I provide a clip of randomly oneshotting a GK at 70 holy res in Sakura Island, not even LW ED enhanced and fully gear procced which is usual pvp scenario. I'll be happy to provide multiple oneshots of actual pvp gameplay if they are requested as they are easy to get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMZWjY1RhFM&ab_channel=xSuigetsuux There are two solutions to solving this constant oneshots, remove double hit from skills or bring down Magical Damage to 150% (which still will be stronger than GM and can hit 3 times). Regarding the -30% dmg taken it should definitely be removed. If you think this is not a neccessary change, then imagine adding perma 30% dmg taken to Mecha or AE, whether it's unthinkable for those 2, also should be for this one. No class should be able to oneshot and be the tankiest in the setup. LW and ED combo were unused during AE times since everyone was using AE inside and outsides main parties. On 8/8/2023 at 1:33 PM, Locsta said: As the person making this party, I can guarantee the only reason we run LW ED is not to get oneshotted by HB, if the class was at the same level as others, we would never use these 2 classes. They are simply there to provide -dmg taken, hp buffs and resistances and be able to even play the game without getting oneshotted every five seconds, which happened every single time we did not run them. Having 5 healers and still having a class able to oneshot somebody does surely contribute to a boring and dull pvp experience. Many players wish to play dps classes but they do not fit inside a party because of the requirement of healers needed. Half the party is there just to keep us alive. As "broken" as AE meta was, there was only 3 healers in party. Makes you wonder if this HB meta is not really stronger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 9 hours ago, Jordan said: Just to cover this egregious comment first as it stood out as the most naive of the bunch. The first video (I skipped to around 5:35 where the party was full). The party consisted of Arch-Elementalist, Blade Acrobat, Holy Sage, Glacial Knight, Celestial Arrow, Master Fencer, Mecha Ares, Adjudicator, Shielder and Reaver. Based on the following I would say this party is also 8:2 on support to dps. The for video number 2 (I skipped to around 34 seconds). The party consisted of Arch-Elementalist, Glacial Knight, Holy Sage, Conjurer, Celestial Arrow, Mecha Ares, Reaver, Adjudicator, Equilibrian and Battlefield Poet. With me giving benefit of the doubt in which you should really be using Battlefield Poet as a damage source, thats still 7:3. Just because there isn't any duplicate classes doesn't mean that this is good examples of what a party setup should look like lol. --- As for the comments towards the meta damage dealers. There isn't really anything wrong with Mecha Ares for a start because that class was the meta up until the Arch-Elementalist rework. So it's only natural that while everyone now claims Arch-Elementalist is unplayable it would take it's place at the table again. Especially since Mecha is a class that hasn't really been balanced changed for several years (From the looks of it, it was Patch v60 the last change back in February 2020). Holy Blade on the other hand I have been keeping an eye on because it has been creeping into the spotlight over time. I'm very hesitant to nerf this class however, as out of all the classes in the game this is the one I'm the least familiar. So I will be looking into this class as soon as possible. --- As for Life Worshipper and Elegant Dancer I do find this situation very funny. These classes have been in a similar state since the original rework. They recieved several buffs in Patch v82 (May 2021) to make them viable. Which means when Arch-Elementalist was at its strongest having 5-6 of them in a party at once, this was a completely viable class combination. Yet nobody used them, so that either tells me that it was a hidden OP (which wasn't hidden very well) or theres nothing wrong with it and people are just branching out into other strategies. Quite honestly I would argue the fact that you haven't made reference to Holy Sage in this post quite shocking to be honest. Lets look at the listed effects you listed: Reduced Enemy CRIT Rates. DMG Taken -15% for 7 seconds with single time 15% recovery (Cooldown 8 seconds, so almost 100% up time). Debuff Removal x8 every 15 seconds (Assuming you have a brain and use the quite clearly obvious choice Class Talent). DMG Taken -50% for 4 seconds (Cooldown is 15 seconds, so just over 25% up time, requires good timing). P-ATK +20% (Mislisted on the Forceful Rhythm song) Resistances +5 pts, CRIT +5%. DMG Dealt 10%, ATK +20%, CRIT +5%. Mana Drain (So mana upkeep is important). Now looking at Holy Sage (Specifically talking about the DMG Aura since if you where to replace ED with another support class this would be the most viable candidate): DMG Taken -15% permenant. Debuff Removal x8 every 5 seconds (so across the same time period is 24 buffs removed). ATK +15%, CRIT +10%, Move SPD +10% (Providing you have the KP). Knockdown Immunity Effectively no mana cost (20 points). So at first glance you might think, well list 1 is bigger than list 2 and yeh your not wrong. But list 1 requires 2 classes with much more importance on cooldown timing and mana and is rewarded for these hardships which list 2 is given all these benefits for free with no counter play. The only counter to list 2 is kill the Holy Sage. The counters to list 1 contain buff removal, mana drain, pushing them apart, CC locking the ED before it can use its core spell and ofc killing one of them (probably more value killing the ED). I think the core arguement in my opinion is would you rather have the slot in party taken by an ED which grants your core DPS +10% DMG, some crit and 40% P-ATK / 20% M-ATK. Or would you rather have an equal DPS in the party providing what can only be quantified as double damage since 2 people attacking at the same time. Well thats a decision that you can only make, I personally would diversify my damage profile with another damage dealer so if they focus down the main damage dealer the party isn't just useless. End of the day, I'm not guna even discuss nerfing these 2 classes in combination unless people are willing to hold other classes to account for being too strong. These classes (specifically ED) has not been played outside of 25 man raids for several years, I'm not about to nerf it just because people have suddenly started playing it when what it provides for taking up 2 party slots is a bit of DMG Dealt and attack stats. Stuff that other classes already provide solo (Like Annihilator for example). --- I want to thank your for your information. I will look into Arch-Elementalist even though I think people are being a bit dramatic over its nerfs and I will be looking into Holy Blade (Not really because of this post but this post kinda makes the case stronger on why it needs to be looked into). I will not be touching ED or LW as of the moment as there is in my opinion a lot more wrong with other classes than these 2 classes. The only considerably broken thing about these 2 classes is a buff with just over 25% up time. Well thanks for your reply. You've said that the party from the first video look like a 8:2 on support to DPS which is not true as Mecha Ares, Blade Acrobat, Master Fencer and Arch-Elementalist were all 4 dealing a good amount of DMG plus CA being a good DMG class back in that time. Heres the scorebord at the end + the battle recorder by 11:40. You can see that all the 4 DPS I mentionned have pretty close DMG even though Battle Recorder isnt the most reliable thing to prove that but we still can see how CA has way less DMG than the others for the reason that its not as much dealing AOE damage than the others 4 DPS even though we could still add this class as DPS to the list and make it 5:5 on Support DPS. If you compare this class to reaver then reaver is a real debuffer lol plus CA still got 21 kills. . On the second video, I agree it was pretty much 7:3 Support on 3 DPS and I do not have battle recorder or scorebord at the end to show it better but the DPS classes were definitely Mecha Ares, Arch-Elementalist and Equilibrian. I am doubtful about adding the Battlefield Poet to the list as it used to be very strong back in that time DMG and Debuff wise. As for the comments towards the meta damage dealers. // Well there is definitely something wrong going on the game in terms of DMG when I mention that you really get one shot too often by Holy Blade and now Mecha Ares. Everyone just bet on their Mecha Ares and Holy Blade DMG and play support class for them but it does happen that you get one shot even with 70 resistances on and no debuffs. I already got one shot by HB once on AE while I had Insight from Adjudicator and 70 resistances lol. Seeing the DMG Potential it does not even feel like others classes are allowed to play in your party as it would just deal less DMG and why use others DPS classes such as Master Fencer/Blade Acrobat when you can simply use many times the most DMG classes aka Mecha Ares/Holy Blade. * Individually, I don't think Mecha Ares is that problematic but Holy Blade, certainly. To talk about Elegant Dancer and Life Worshipper, these classes have always been here on the game and being left used just times to times, I remember using it back in NoFear with MoneyTeam pt (2020) so I think that sliglty Nerfing Mecha/Holy Blade plus ED/LW would be the EASIEST way to make the game better but there is probably other alternatives and it becomes pretty hard to find the issue with all these high stats and DMG increase. Nerfing those classes do not mean that unused classes would suddenly become META though but have a more fair chance of competing. Now the reason why i didn't not mention Holy sage is because Holy Sage cannot stack 2 Blessings and get both CC Immunity (you can still get the other buff) at the same time so if you were to place 2 Holy Sage in the same party, this would mean that you would either sacrify FEAR immunity or KD Immunity and i guess using the Anti FEAR is better for the only reason that KD Immunity cooldown last 1 minute and Fear Immunty cooldown last 30 seconds so this would decrease the CC by a lot. I'll try to come up with any future PvP video that show how the game looks like so you can have a better picture of it plus thanks for looking into AE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 5 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: Hello, Addressing classes individually: Mecha seems fine, it is the same class we had during AE era, in the past AE was stronger, therefore there was no point in using it. The class seems stronger now because AE is unplayable as main dps and we added LW ED combo which boosts its damage while in the past we would simply add more AEs (main reason it was fun and everybody wanted to enjoy the pvp playing it). But realising the tankiness they provide, similar to now against HB, we could've surely benefitted from the combo when we were 2 AEs facing Garden's 8 AEs. Overall Mecha Ares is not overpowered, mainly because of how easy it is to remove its buffs and armor which causes the class to be weak until you get the next chance to acquire your Bulwark once again. AE is not usable on lightning but other stances do damage, changes should be focused on Lightning Stance rather than Magic Burst, we probably still wouldn't use since it was triple hit before and only Losque was using it to be honest, the first nerf was enough to make the server go from 25 AE players to one. However if you are truly seeking for variety there are some changes that could bring both Nature and Ice stance to pvp, rendering Lightning Stance for PVE as it was stated to be the focus on its rework patch, and the other stances for PVP. Even though I also was AE main and miss playing the class, I definitely enjoy having different metas across time, instead of just playing the same class forever, accordingly having Lightning Stance for a pve environment and we use the others in pvp can be a good idea. Although some slight modifications are needed in Nature and Ice departments for this to succesfully happen. Last reminder that as you mentioned we only focus on holy / fire resistances, consequently forcing players to care about two new types of resistances. Holy Blade's controversial aspect is that you can make a party with only one main dps and you will still wipe. In the past if you ran more healers you simply would lack dps output. Which is not really an issue now since the class can oneshot targets without any swaps required, base build. I don't really understand why a main dps class has -30% dmg taken basically always, he's almost a BK in pve. I also don't see why GM was nerfed when it was already weaker per hit than HB, and HB does 3 hits per jump while GM does only 1. Holy Blade magical dmg augmentation on jump is simply too high, plus the base matk is way higher on HB than AE or any other class. I provide a clip of randomly oneshotting a GK at 70 holy res in Sakura Island, not even LW ED enhanced and fully gear procced which is usual pvp scenario. I'll be happy to provide multiple oneshots of actual pvp gameplay if they are requested as they are easy to get. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yMZWjY1RhFM&ab_channel=xSuigetsuux There are two solutions to solving this constant oneshots, remove double hit from skills or bring down Magical Damage to 150% (which still will be stronger than GM and can hit 3 times). Regarding the -30% dmg taken it should definitely be removed. If you think this is not a neccessary change, then imagine adding perma 30% dmg taken to Mecha or AE, whether it's unthinkable for those 2, also should be for this one. No class should be able to oneshot and be the tankiest in the setup. LW and ED combo were unused during AE times since everyone was using AE inside and outsides main parties. As the person making this party, I can guarantee the only reason we run LW ED is not to get oneshotted by HB, if the class was at the same level as others, we would never use these 2 classes. They are simply there to provide -dmg taken, hp buffs and resistances and be able to even play the game without getting oneshotted every five seconds, which happened every single time we did not run them. Having 5 healers and still having a class able to oneshot somebody does surely contribute to a boring and dull pvp experience. Many players wish to play dps classes but they do not fit inside a party because of the requirement of healers needed. Half the party is there just to keep us alive. As "broken" as AE meta was, there was only 3 healers in party. Makes you wonder if this HB meta is not really stronger. alright RicadoPain, thanks for sharing your opinion. So you said here that Mecha Ares seems fine and I do agree with you at some point which is true it has many defaults such as the fact that your armor can get removed and also its sometimes tough to put bulwark on or you might just fail it and be useless for 30 next seconds. However I don't think the DMG are fair but that only happen when its fully buffed and played around such as the classes you used in this party posted in my original post. Separetely, all the classes in that party are fair and not one them is insanely strong but I think that the fact that you can get both DMG and Tankiness by running ED/LW is really too strong and get coupled with Mecha Ares really well right now and if it is that strong everyone can just run it but it kinds of suck that you HAVE to use these classes to win right now. I am not going to talk much about Arch-Elementalist, i guess you said pretty much everything even though I tried to play it in a party after its nerf but nothing really came out of it and I think Jordan would come up with some self made changes. i just didn't feel to suggest something that might come out too broken or a buff that would make the class META instantly. I just wish it could just be playable but not insanely good like it used to be. Now regarding Holy Blade, I was also wondering why the class gets more tanky while in the air lol it kind of do not make sense that the class gets DMG increased by so much and tankiness also. These 30% DMG Taken are the reason why the class is such hard to kill now. I think that lowering DMG increase by just a little bit is a must. ED and LW are not going to get nerfed i guess but if these were not played anymore and Holy Blade DMG was nerfed, Holy Blade wouldnt have so much impact on the game at all. Thats why I came out with ED/LW nerf because that would mean that Holy Blade and Mecha Ares do not need to be touched or see just a little bit. plus running 8 supports and still being able to wipe this fast with such crazy DMG is also insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSuigetsuux Posted August 9, 2023 Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 I do understand your aim in nerfing LW ED is a means to consequently removing HB and Mecha power. However the core issue remaining is HB. I can think of 5 different setups without LW ED that will make mecha stronger than having these two classes by a large margin. We simply cannot use these setups because HB would oneshot every single one of us. Independently of how good of a combination LW ED might be for utility, the real problem is that we need them not for damage (they do add damage, but it's not why they must be used), rather for its survivability against HB constantly farming you even at 70 res plus damage reduction from Maul trophy, guitar buff, adju's insight, etc. 19 minutes ago, Locsta said: These 30% DMG Taken are the reason why the class is such hard to kill now. And yes, the class that oneshots you having a permanent 30% dmg taken reduction buff is game breaking. Until HB gets modified to be at the same level as Mecha or AE, LW ED will be needed in order to stand a chance at a "fair" fight, in which you might get oneshotted at any moment by a class that receives almost half the dmg others do and does not need any active buff that can be removed to prevent that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 9, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 8 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: I do understand your aim in nerfing LW ED is a means to consequently removing HB and Mecha power. However the core issue remaining is HB. I can think of 5 different setups without LW ED that will make mecha stronger than having these two classes by a large margin. We simply cannot use these setups because HB would oneshot every single one of us. Independently of how good of a combination LW ED might be for utility, the real problem is that we need them not for damage (they do add damage, but it's not why they must be used), rather for its survivability against HB constantly farming you even at 70 res plus damage reduction from Maul trophy, guitar buff, adju's insight, etc. And yes, the class that oneshots you having a permanent 30% dmg taken reduction buff is game breaking. Until HB gets modified to be at the same level as Mecha or AE, LW ED will be needed in order to stand a chance at a "fair" fight, in which you might get oneshotted at any moment by a class that receives almost half the dmg others do and does not need any active buff that can be removed to prevent that. I think the most craziest is the fact that you gain both DMG Reduction and DMG increase. You could use any other class that buff Mecha Ares for sure and I think Shielder/Blade Acrobat or Annihilator (but you already use it) would probably be on that list but beside Shielder there is no other class I can think of that grant you this much DMG and Tankiness at the same time. + Elegant Dancer is a way better support right now if you look at the overall kit of the class which includes debuffing party, CC skill, dmg immunity allowing you to deal more DMG and being tanky at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VGN GM Jordan Posted August 9, 2023 VGN GM Report Share Posted August 9, 2023 6 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: Holy Blade's controversial aspect is that you can make a party with only one main dps and you will still wipe. In the past if you ran more healers you simply would lack dps output. Which is not really an issue now since the class can oneshot targets without any swaps required, base build. I don't really understand why a main dps class has -30% dmg taken basically always, he's almost a BK in pve. I also don't see why GM was nerfed when it was already weaker per hit than HB, and HB does 3 hits per jump while GM does only 1. Holy Blade magical dmg augmentation on jump is simply too high, plus the base matk is way higher on HB than AE or any other class. I provide a clip of randomly oneshotting a GK at 70 holy res in Sakura Island, not even LW ED enhanced and fully gear procced which is usual pvp scenario. I'll be happy to provide multiple oneshots of actual pvp gameplay if they are requested as they are easy to get. There are two solutions to solving this constant oneshots, remove double hit from skills or bring down Magical Damage to 150% (which still will be stronger than GM and can hit 3 times). Regarding the -30% dmg taken it should definitely be removed. If you think this is not a neccessary change, then imagine adding perma 30% dmg taken to Mecha or AE, whether it's unthinkable for those 2, also should be for this one. No class should be able to oneshot and be the tankiest in the setup. Holy Blade provides less damage in a single burst but more over time which is sort of the design of the class. GM was nerfed a long time ago and the only nerf that actually made the class unused was not a damage nerf but rather the nerf to how the stacking system worked. GM could quite easily do exactly what Holy Blade is doing now to be honest but people do not like how they can't just button mash and have infinite stacks. What makes the Holy Blade broken of the current state is a lot of the things you mentioned. High damage in multiple casts, the inability to be punished for missing skills and thats all packed in with the simplicity in gameplay of just: Jump -> Pew Pew Pew -> Jump -> Pew Pew Pew -> etc I think the nerfs you have suggested are kinda fair and I will tune over the coming days to make sure some changes are included in the next patch (Which should be soon hopefully). I thank you for the insight as again I will state compared to every other class in the game this is the class I have the least information on. 3 hours ago, Locsta said: Well thanks for your reply. You've said that the party from the first video look like a 8:2 on support to DPS which is not true as Mecha Ares, Blade Acrobat, Master Fencer and Arch-Elementalist were all 4 dealing a good amount of DMG plus CA being a good DMG class back in that time. Not going to really argue about it but just to point out I was going off the same basis of what you stated from the image where you stated the other DPS classes where there to support the main DPS. Which even if thats true they're probebly having similar results to how the battle recorder looked. It's just obvious that it was an extreme overreach. 2 hours ago, Locsta said: Now regarding Holy Blade, I was also wondering why the class gets more tanky while in the air lol it kind of do not make sense that the class gets DMG increased by so much and tankiness also. These 30% DMG Taken are the reason why the class is such hard to kill now. I think that lowering DMG increase by just a little bit is a must. I touched on it above but I'll just clear it up. Holy Blade is a class I'm very unfamilar with and is mostly still in it's original X-Legend design. I have changed the buffs and values to be more according with our server but it is the class that has likely saw the least amount of changes out of them all. The original design that I sort of went with was it was always the weaker version of GM and there has to be advantages to being the weaker version of something right? So it's advantages where at the time just it was able to cast more spells and instead of EVA which atleast at 100 cap when changes where made was a useless stat entirely it got DMG reduction. So better survival, weaker damage. GM since then has gone through several iterations and Holy Blade has pretty much been unchanged the entire time. This is why it has the DMG Taken reduction anyway and why it functions how it does when compared to its comparrison class GM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexs Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 This post is a lot of whining, to begin with, complaining that there is no diversity of classes in this meta is totally absurd, since in the previous meta we had: Gk x1, Hs x1, Adj x2, Reaver x1, Conj x1, Ae x3 and sometimes x4, Bp x1 sometimes... And in the current meta: Gk x1, Hs x1, Adj x1, Lw x1, Ed x1, Reaver x1, Ae x1, Mecha x2, Hb or Anni x1 soooo it is clear that crying about class diversity in the pts in the current meta is out of place.Typical post from AE lover on fire because they nerfed his class and now he wants to nerf the strong classes of the enemy guild. This post started when Locsta was in SD, focusing on the fact that the HB was very broken and trying to nerf Garden's strong class, not even mentioning the mecha when he had already tried it in TW and it had not given him good results, but now that he is in SB and Suigetsu carry SD with mecha, he comes back trying to nerf the mecha too and since he doesnt have players to play LW/ED in his guild then nerf this too.So main AE from SB trying to nerf mecha(sd) and hb(garden) class, and main mecha from SD trying to nerf hb(garden) and save his mecha and nobody wanna nerf SB classes because they dont even join pvp, just complaining or copying builds and when they do not get good results proceed to cry. The mecha and the HB dmg have not been touched for years possibly 3+ and they never complained, I even played HB in the broken AE meta and got top kills over the AE and they still didn't complain.It is absurd to complain that the HB oneshoot ppl, the class was made to have great damage, it is normal that when build a full 3hit/sadness build you end up 1shooting when one activates, but that does not happen as often as they want to make it seem, and if they 1shoot you often, it's because you're doing something wrong, the other guilds have been playing HB as well and they haven't ever 1shoot me or maybe once with luck, on the contrary they have been 1shooted by my HB several times.Does the HB have the highest dmg? Yes, but it is not a class that can do damage as continuous as others with which you can hit many times in a shorter period than the HB and maintain a much more constant damage like the mecha and sometimes even the AE ice, it has a high but not constant damage and little range compared to the mecha (HB 20mtrs and 15mtrs - Mecha 25mtrs), in the same way it is easier to counter an HB than a mecha, due to the small range of the HB you only have to separate a little of your companions which is useless against a mecha because of the great range it has, the only counter to the mecha is removing buffs to remove its armor, but with all the excessive amount of buffs we gain thanks to ED/LW and the swaps of trophy that can be done in mecha since the missiles activate too fast it is not so easy to remove status but u can do it, anyways it is even easier to remove the DESTRUCTIVE LEAP buff from the HB, and not only that, you can also nerf the HB with disarm trophies (Badge of crime/ axe moss) that activate super fast since they have a 5% chance instead of 2% like the others and those 2 troph can stack... which don't work to nerf the mecha, and to make things worse you can use ChinoT to nerf the HB which doesn't allow him to jump, which is totally broken because it doesn't have any type of cooldown/inmunity and to make matters worse there are several ChinoT that you can use and stack at the same time, and even worse there is one that lasts 8 seconds which makes the cc more broken and that only counters the HB, but people here prefer to just complain and ask to nerf the class of the other guild in order to win, or they hope that one has to tell them how to do it in order to beat us.That only 1 HB is enough to carry and delete 1pt even when they have 70holy res and reduction is another exaggeration to try to nerf the class, and there is no video to prove it, the only time I saw 1 only HB that works well to delete another pt it was when it was supported by 1equi -30holy res, 1 AoJ -20 res and block and 1 Asura -25% block so of course it will have a big effect on HB or any class if you reduce -50 resist and -45% block permanently to your target, and in that mentioned case it's not x1 HB killing people with 70holy, it's x1 HB killing people with 20holy and 5% block with shield swap. However, if we're going to talk about broken things that easily carry 1pt, the meta of 2 mechs and classes supporting them with -resis is totally broken, mechas 1shooting ppl, that's what the current meta is becoming, anyway, I see people here complaining with only theory that in practice it does not work like that,ill show videos where u can see the real impact of HB in pvp, not a sakura random test or just words, mostly of them is TW ( Im not going to take into consideration my HB impact/1shoots bc i understand they state that is HB class which is broken, not the player) -Broken HB having less impact than AE after first nerf ( which was decently and not broken for sir Locsta)https://youtu.be/qz6uPoq_WjAhttps://youtu.be/HvWQu2u-tfghttps://youtu.be/aHjd1962tbMhttps://youtu.be/bYcpN2QKTpghttps://youtu.be/d7Xk4hK6Q0A -AE ice having more impact than HB ahaha nerf AE ice https://youtu.be/vjzYNbjUcCM -Enemy Hb having less impact than Mecha and AE after second nerf, even u can see in our side suigetsu playing mecha having better impact than me playing broken HB and in second video i playing mecha having more impact than him palying broken HB https://youtu.be/6BOKDmUbsLAhttps://youtu.be/WVyQtPgOAXA -Guild Arena and TW where mechas having more impact than broken HB https://youtu.be/2HM-L1h2TJ0https://youtu.be/MBVxqE3zmBw -TW where enemy mecha have mroe impact than HB and didnt even play the entire TWhttps://youtu.be/p3Qzt38EAWg -TW where we got outnumbered and even enemy side had 2 broken 1shooters HB that never 1shooted me the entire TW...https://youtu.be/DNMdBYmgExA -TW where 2 mecha pt beat 2 HB pt, this is the current metahttps://youtu.be/rq053nW9lSg With this i dont wanna say mecha needs a nerf, idc, i only prove with facts/videos that HB isnt broken as they wanna make it look only to nerf it, and there is another topic to focus if we gonna talk abt broken class like mecha meta, anyways subscribe to my channel and leave ur like 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSuigetsuux Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 Since facts and evidence are being requested after argumentations of you never being oneshot by a HB. Let's state the fact that you have attempted to play Mecha Ares at over 10 attempts, all of which you switched back to HB within minutes. Your only mecha gameplay was when we were not a full party, and you had SoulBreaker fighting alongside you on the sides. In this video you attached https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq053nW9lSg&ab_channel=Hasiru , you can clearly see how you were on Mecha Ares completely unable to kill a single member of our team. After that you changed to HB once again and you quickly managed to get us killed. If mecha is that strong and holy blade is not, just stick to mecha for the whole pvp. We did double mecha that day because HB is a extremely boring class and our members would rather play something else, regardless of how broken it is. You mentioned AE was still "broken" after first nerf, however here's a post nerf gvg of Stardust using only one AE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UissFXty02E&ab_channel=xSuigetsuux You guys had two players using these two so incredibly strong classes AE and Mecha Ares in this GVG, who got 11 and 8 kills while Losque got 47. Therefore your point of AE being ridiculously strong might just be due to the fact that Losque is a stronger player. Here you got another gameplay you provided where you start as Mecha Ares, fight half a party in mid. Then you change to HB once again. There are inconsistencies in your arguments, you mentioned Fire AE with two mecha ares is the current overpowered meta, yet you had Fire AE + 3 Mechas and still changed to HB. Guess who got the top kills despite competing against the "current meta". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMdBYmgExA&t=2s&ab_channel=Alxs You also mentioned you never get killed by HB and this is all exaggerations yet still only play HB and switch back to it when you started the pvp with a different class. Perhaps a solution is not to play the class with almost half damage taken reduction. I have two clips of you in a different class, they're all I could find with you not on HB over months of pvp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOtw8Hx8spY&ab_channel=xSuigetsuux In the first clip you can see how your party gets erased in about three seconds of hitting. Second clip is me not even going below >85% hp while your party is focusing me, also not using LW ED combination (which your party did have). You get kited since I do not even need to stop moving like AE to hit you and you get instantly removed from action in around two seconds of gameplay. I slowed down the hitting part so you can see clearly it was all me (I didn't even have Disillusionment, but I don't need it, base build with no procs is enough). 19 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: I'll be happy to provide multiple oneshots of actual pvp gameplay if they are requested as they are easy to get. Like I said, many more clips can be provided if they are requested once again, we have over 7 months of pvp footage about HB from different points of view, not one single player. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 On 8/10/2023 at 12:00 PM, Lexs said: This post is a lot of whining, to begin with, complaining that there is no diversity of classes in this meta is totally absurd, since in the previous meta we had: Gk x1, Hs x1, Adj x2, Reaver x1, Conj x1, Ae x3 and sometimes x4, Bp x1 sometimes... And in the current meta: Gk x1, Hs x1, Adj x1, Lw x1, Ed x1, Reaver x1, Ae x1, Mecha x2, Hb or Anni x1 soooo it is clear that crying about class diversity in the pts in the current meta is out of place.Typical post from AE lover on fire because they nerfed his class and now he wants to nerf the strong classes of the enemy guild. This post started when Locsta was in SD, focusing on the fact that the HB was very broken and trying to nerf Garden's strong class, not even mentioning the mecha when he had already tried it in TW and it had not given him good results, but now that he is in SB and Suigetsu carry SD with mecha, he comes back trying to nerf the mecha too and since he doesnt have players to play LW/ED in his guild then nerf this too.So main AE from SB trying to nerf mecha(sd) and hb(garden) class, and main mecha from SD trying to nerf hb(garden) and save his mecha and nobody wanna nerf SB classes because they dont even join pvp, just complaining or copying builds and when they do not get good results proceed to cry. The mecha and the HB dmg have not been touched for years possibly 3+ and they never complained, I even played HB in the broken AE meta and got top kills over the AE and they still didn't complain.It is absurd to complain that the HB oneshoot ppl, the class was made to have great damage, it is normal that when build a full 3hit/sadness build you end up 1shooting when one activates, but that does not happen as often as they want to make it seem, and if they 1shoot you often, it's because you're doing something wrong, the other guilds have been playing HB as well and they haven't ever 1shoot me or maybe once with luck, on the contrary they have been 1shooted by my HB several times.Does the HB have the highest dmg? Yes, but it is not a class that can do damage as continuous as others with which you can hit many times in a shorter period than the HB and maintain a much more constant damage like the mecha and sometimes even the AE ice, it has a high but not constant damage and little range compared to the mecha (HB 20mtrs and 15mtrs - Mecha 25mtrs), in the same way it is easier to counter an HB than a mecha, due to the small range of the HB you only have to separate a little of your companions which is useless against a mecha because of the great range it has, the only counter to the mecha is removing buffs to remove its armor, but with all the excessive amount of buffs we gain thanks to ED/LW and the swaps of trophy that can be done in mecha since the missiles activate too fast it is not so easy to remove status but u can do it, anyways it is even easier to remove the DESTRUCTIVE LEAP buff from the HB, and not only that, you can also nerf the HB with disarm trophies (Badge of crime/ axe moss) that activate super fast since they have a 5% chance instead of 2% like the others and those 2 troph can stack... which don't work to nerf the mecha, and to make things worse you can use ChinoT to nerf the HB which doesn't allow him to jump, which is totally broken because it doesn't have any type of cooldown and to make matters worse there are several ChinoT that you can use and stack at the same time, and even worse there is one that lasts 8 seconds which makes the cc more broken and that only counters the HB, but people here prefer to just complain and ask to nerf the class of the other guild in order to win, or they hope that one has to tell them how to do it in order to beat us.That only 1 HB is enough to carry and delete 1pt even when they have 70holy res and reduction is another exaggeration to try to nerf the class, and there is no video to prove it, the only time I saw 1 only HB that works well to delete another pt it was when it was supported by 1equi -30holy res, 1 AoJ -20 res and block and 1 Asura -25% block so of course it will have a big effect on HB or any class if you reduce -50 resist and -45% block permanently to your target, and in that mentioned case it's not x1 HB killing people with 70holy, it's x1 HB killing people with 20holy and 5% block with shield swap. However, if we're going to talk about broken things that easily carry 1pt, the meta of 2 mechs and classes supporting them with -resis is totally broken, mechas 1shooting ppl, that's what the current meta is becoming, anyway, I see people here complaining with only theory that in practice it does not work like that,ill show videos where u can see the real impact of HB in pvp, not a sakura random test or just words, mostly of them is TW ( Im not going to take into consideration my HB impact/1shoots bc i understand they state that is HB class which is broken, not the player) -Broken HB having less impact than AE after first nerf ( which was decently and not broken for sir Locsta)https://youtu.be/qz6uPoq_WjAhttps://youtu.be/HvWQu2u-tfghttps://youtu.be/aHjd1962tbMhttps://youtu.be/bYcpN2QKTpghttps://youtu.be/d7Xk4hK6Q0A -AE ice having more impact than HB ahaha nerf AE ice https://youtu.be/vjzYNbjUcCM -Enemy Hb having less impact than Mecha and AE after second nerf, even u can see in our side suigetsu playing mecha having better impact than me playing broken HB and in second video i playing mecha having more impact than him palying broken HB https://youtu.be/6BOKDmUbsLAhttps://youtu.be/WVyQtPgOAXA -Guild Arena and TW where mechas having more impact than broken HB https://youtu.be/2HM-L1h2TJ0https://youtu.be/MBVxqE3zmBw -TW where enemy mecha have mroe impact than HB and didnt even play the entire TWhttps://youtu.be/p3Qzt38EAWg -TW where we got outnumbered and even enemy side had 2 broken 1shooters HB that never 1shooted me the entire TW...https://youtu.be/DNMdBYmgExA -TW where 2 mecha pt beat 2 HB pt, this is the current metahttps://youtu.be/rq053nW9lSg With this i dont wanna say mecha needs a nerf, idc, i only prove with facts/videos that HB isnt broken as they wanna make it look only to nerf it, and there is another topic to focus if we gonna talk abt broken class like mecha meta, anyways subscribe to my channel and leave ur like Thanks for your reply. I am not going to jump on a 1v1 arguing about what happened on the game or what you think happened on the game because this is not the right place for it. This has first of all nothing to do with the fact than I enjoy to play AE more than any other class as you seen me playing Holy Blade against you (SD vs Garden) lol and the DMG difference when we had Holy Blade and when we had not was pretty much obvious. I remember a lot of tws being No Holy Blade 0% WR vs Holy Blade 50% WR. Plus you say that I am trying to nerf mecha when I just mentionned that nerfing the class would just be an alternative to leave others class a chance to compete. Saying that Holy Blade does not one shot a lot is not true lol if you compare that class to any other DPS classes, the one shot ratio comparison is just insane LOL. (I think you missunderstand because sometimes the fights last 5 minutes but even there is always someone getting crazy bursted out of nowhere but gets revived so the fight do not end). You also said that its not Holy Blade dealing insane amount of DMG to people with 70 holy res but 20 resistances which is not true at all lmao there is so many times I played HB where I litteraly bursted out people with no debuff on them and there is also many videos you can find where that happened (With ED/LW in pt) Regarding AE being good then I was pretty much complaining in Stardust about AE being META back in the day because this was the only class being played as DPS (sometimes Mecha Ares). Everyone would just run AE and boom boom in TW but as you guys were outnumbering most TW, this class was fun enough to play at some point in order to compete in 10-13 vs 20+. The fact that you could stay in range was really making the class . High DMG and safe at the same time making the possibility to wipe more than a party with only 10. You just have to accept that Holy Blade got too strong right now and its not because no one was playing it while you were that it was not insanely good at that time but it even got stronger right now plus the DMG on the game keep on increasing with release of new gears aka awakened weapon for this content. But as I mentionned earlier there are classes that overshine others and back in that time AE was overshining every other class in term of DPS value. It did happened that I one shot someone on AE with lightning storm lol. Another reason why this hasnt been played is because the class gameplay does not please everyone and now everyone is just forced to use it to win. (or mecha ares) I can relate to AE before its rework, most people who talked to me about the class said it was either too hard or they didnt like the gameplay even though I was doing fine on it but no one was forced to play and no one did play it actually because it wasnt insanely broken enough to being forced to play it. I would like to state however that this is not just me randomly complaining after been through a couple loss on the game. Even back in Stardust when we were winning at some point, we were still complaining about how boring was to play Holy Blade and Mecha Ares. Just letting you know but your answer is typically the reason why no one like to argue or make any post on the forum about what could be better for PvP. now this is pretty much funny that you brought AE Ice being broken and I am not going to argue about it this is just you trying to find a good point to score lol. You're free to use it and tell me whats up lmao. The nerfs asked here is just in order to make the game more fun and as I said, this is me and some others people opinions but now there is the possibility that some players like the current meta of running 2 DPS Classes and 8 support lmao This been just sharing opinions and I hope this would not end up in bad terms as this is just like in order to make the game better and now if you do want to share opinions you're free to just simply do it but this hasn't been made to settle scores. PS i do have the video where I got one shot while on ae while having Insight buff but now it just sounds like its going to end up like childish arguing and proving eachother things to see who is not lying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 Sad to see that the topic derailed into these kinds of arguments, really. Holy Blade hasn't been touched in a while. The game got more base stats, more raw DMG, yet it still multiplies all these bonuses by 200%, which works for 3 skills instead of 1 from Gravity Manipulator. It's only natural that the class scaled up to this point. The -30% DMG taken while on air is only a complaint due to how the class scaled its damage through time, reaching the top charts of DMG dealt. What i'd adress here is: Is nerfing Holy Blade DMG output going to "solve" the PVP ratio of 8:2 support/DMG? People will always slug fight as much as they can because losing a player is a big loss in a fight. Not so much due to smoke bombs, but it's still an advantage. So whatever people can do to lower DMG taken will be an attractive resource that competitive players won't ever give up on using. The thing is: Most of the playerbase doesn't enjoy playing supports. Maybe why our PVP numbers are always low. Maybe we don't have popular PVP mechanics because we're forced into using 8:2 or 7:3 setups in order to barely survive. I'm not talking about Garden, SoulBreaker, Stardust. I'm talking about the rest of the potential community that could be joining PVPs but just doesn't bother because they'll have to sacrifice their fun just to sit and press buttons on an unwanted class (may it be Elegant Dancer, Life Worshipper or any other support). Playing support is a style that isn't for everybody, that's why for PVE you only need one, and that's why PVE is still popular. Adress DMG taken in PVP maps. Nerf the support classes offer of DMG Taken reductions. We need a support overhaul, where each support is there to offer a specific resource that's wanted on a strategy. Maybe the Adjudicator can be the "Jack of all trades" healer, but the rest shouldn't be there just to "add DMG reduction". That way, We wouldn't need 8 players focused on reducing the potential of a single Holy Blade (or Mecha, or whatever you guys tell us it's "meta" since it's not really "meta" but "what worked best on your strategies, players and resources"). That way, we'd have more people playing fun DMG or CC classes. Maybe our PVP would have more people interested into gearing up and joining. Sincerely, a Guild Leader that constantly keeps gearing up people just to see them leave the game because they don't want to play supports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 20 minutes ago, Reikan said: Sad to see that the topic derailed into these kinds of arguments, really. Holy Blade hasn't been touched in a while. The game got more base stats, more raw DMG, yet it still multiplies all these bonuses by 200%, which works for 3 skills instead of 1 from Gravity Manipulator. It's only natural that the class scaled up to this point. The -30% DMG taken while on air is only a complaint due to how the class scaled its damage through time, reaching the top charts of DMG dealt. What i'd adress here is: Is nerfing Holy Blade DMG output going to "solve" the PVP ratio of 8:2 support/DMG? People will always slug fight as much as they can because losing a player is a big loss in a fight. Not so much due to smoke bombs, but it's still an advantage. So whatever people can do to lower DMG taken will be an attractive resource that competitive players won't ever give up on using. The thing is: Most of the playerbase doesn't enjoy playing supports. Maybe why our PVP numbers are always low. Maybe we don't have popular PVP mechanics because we're forced into using 8:2 or 7:3 setups in order to barely survive. I'm not talking about Garden, SoulBreaker, Stardust. I'm talking about the rest of the potential community that could be joining PVPs but just doesn't bother because they'll have to sacrifice their fun just to sit and press buttons on an unwanted class (may it be Elegant Dancer, Life Worshipper or any other support). Playing support is a style that isn't for everybody, that's why for PVE you only need one, and that's why PVE is still popular. Adress DMG taken in PVP maps. Nerf the support classes offer of DMG Taken reductions. We need a support overhaul, where each support is there to offer a specific resource that's wanted on a strategy. Maybe the Adjudicator can be the "Jack of all trades" healer, but the rest shouldn't be there just to "add DMG reduction". That way, We wouldn't need 8 players focused on reducing the potential of a single Holy Blade (or Mecha, or whatever you guys tell us it's "meta" since it's not really "meta" but "what worked best on your strategies, players and resources"). That way, we'd have more people playing fun DMG or CC classes. Maybe our PVP would have more people interested into gearing up and joining. Sincerely, a Guild Leader that constantly keeps gearing up people just to see them leave the game because they don't want to play supports. Pretty sad, in fact lol I think that adressing others stuffs beside the class would work the best for the game and this has been brought in Losque's topic but the mystery question is how to adress that without fucking the whole game. Also adressing only the DMG Taken would mean that some classes would really stand on top again but it would atleast make some others classes playable a bit more. Probably not the best but as far as I know, some people still make work classes that are not judged being the best. If only DMG Taken were going to be adressed then some classes might also need to be nerfed aka HB. Nerfing Holy Blade would definitely make it more fair but now is it going to be fun anyways? Mecha Ares is probably going to take over more than it used to be but there would still be more potential for others class to be tried out. imo Lv100 cap was the funniest even though some classes aka DE were too good but it was pretty fun to wipe people and not being fighting for 10 minutes so now the game has pretty much lost of its dynamism (moving crystal, fight, move crystal wipe) but its just due to lack of people in PvP which might be due to how the game is right now. But its really hard to adress that problem now there is so many DMG Taken reduction from weapons/trophies in addition to skills that make the game a little bit weird. Its also so easy to cap every stat on the game there is a lot of stats you can give up on to be more tanky and without losing any DMG. I'm thinking about the Body Gem that lowers M-DMG Taken by 2%. Something you would think about using if you had to take care of more than Holy and Fire resistances on the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 2 minutes ago, Locsta said: Pretty sad, in fact lol I think that adressing others stuffs beside the class would work the best for the game and this has been brought in Losque's topic but the mystery question is how to adress that without fucking the whole game. Also adressing only the DMG Taken would mean that some classes would really stand on top again but it would atleast make some others classes playable a bit more. Probably not the best but as far as I know, some people still make work classes that are not judged being the best. If only DMG Taken were going to be adressed then some classes might also need to be nerfed aka HB. Nerfing Holy Blade would definitely make it more fair but now is it going to be fun anyways? Mecha Ares is probably going to take over more than it used to be but there would still be more potential for others class to be tried out. imo Lv100 cap was the funniest even though some classes aka DE were too good but it was pretty fun to wipe people and not being fighting for 10 minutes so now the game has pretty much lost of its dynamism (moving crystal, fight, move crystal wipe) but its just due to lack of people in PvP which might be due to how the game is right now. But its really hard to adress that problem now there is so many DMG Taken reduction from weapons/trophies in addition to skills that make the game a little bit weird. Its also so easy to cap every stat on the game there is a lot of things you can trade to be more tanky. I'm thinking about the Body Gem that lowers M-DMG Taken by 2%. Something you would think about using if you had to take care of more than Holy and Fire resistances on the game. Nerfing one or other won't ever solve the 8:2 support:DPS issue. It will just bring another class to the top and the trend will continue, unless all the DMG potential gets nerfed into oblivion, rendering the game unplayable for most. DMG Taken in PVP maps should be the target of the changes, not specific classes. If after that, some class is still in the highlights, maybe THEN we could adress a nerf. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted August 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 59 minutes ago, Reikan said: Nerfing one or other won't ever solve the 8:2 support:DPS issue. It will just bring another class to the top and the trend will continue, unless all the DMG potential gets nerfed into oblivion, rendering the game unplayable for most. DMG Taken in PVP maps should be the target of the changes, not specific classes. If after that, some class is still in the highlights, maybe THEN we could adress a nerf. Well I did suggest to nerf the supports such as LW/ED so Holy Blade and Mecha Ares would not need to be changed or maybe just nerfed a little bit. Jordan said he won't nerf these 2 classes as they always been here and never been a problem which the same can be said for Holy Blade. The class always been here but never been so much of a problem. I am not sure if you ever did PvP but I haven't seen you once in PvP so I might be more able to say how Holy Blade has an impact on having fun in TW but now it doesn't mean its going to be fun all of sudden but would surely make it slighlty better right now. But in the case Holy Blade and Mecha Ares were not that strong anymore no matter what build this would really leave opportunities for others classes but thats not whats all is about as I mentionned supports being lowkey too strong seeing the buff they bring to DPS so it would in fact probably stay a most SUPPORT party which is fine to me as long that another most DPS party can compete. Theres a ton of changes that can be done, either nerfing others aspect on the game such as the one you mentionned or slowly nerfing classes and making everything fair (healers/support included). I don't want this thread to end up on a repeat talk though I get your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 13 minutes ago, Locsta said: Well I did suggest to nerf the supports such as LW/ED so Holy Blade and Mecha Ares would not need to be changed or maybe just nerfed a little bit. Jordan said he won't nerf these 2 classes as they always been here and never been a problem which the same can be said for Holy Blade. The class always been here but never been so much of a problem. I am not sure if you ever did PvP but I haven't seen you once in PvP so I might be more able to say how Holy Blade has an impact on having fun in TW but now it doesn't mean its going to be fun all of sudden but would surely make it slighlty better right now. But in the case Holy Blade and Mecha Ares were not that strong anymore no matter what build this would really leave opportunities for others classes but thats not whats all is about as I mentionned supports being lowkey too strong seeing the buff they bring to DPS so it would in fact probably stay a most SUPPORT party which is fine to me as long that another most DPS party can compete. Theres a ton of changes that can be done, either nerfing others aspect on the game such as the one you mentionned or slowly nerfing classes and making everything fair (healers/support included). I don't want this thread to end up on a repeat talk though I get your point. I don't think LW/ED needs nerfs. Just that their contribution to -DMG Taken on PVP shouldn't exist, and instead the PVP maps should have a fixed amount of DMG Reduction. It should solve the 8:2 support:dps problem. You haven't seen me once in PvP because it is no longer possible for a leader like me to keep players interested into the PVP goal of the game, exactly because I'd have them forced into 8:2 supports for us to be able to even step into a PVP map. I used to PVP back when we had L120 / L100 Weaps-sets and before Dragonridge Sanctuary existed. We had Celestial and MoneyTeam in the scenario, and BrightShield was often in PVP maps. Not winning, but taking part. Having fun, which is the goal of gaming. The 7:3 or 8:2 ratio for supports:DPS was present but not something needed for a guild to step into a PVP map. It was still possible to walk around as a group without being instantly deleted by a single person. The DMG of the entire game scaled up, while our ability to defend ourselves without stacking 8 supports didn't. That's the issue. I'm not interested in winning PVP. I'm interested into bringing new/returning players back into the game scenario, and at the moment the odds of getting these players to stay are very low. We have too many better options of PVE games out there to play. I can't convince people that a game like this (EE on current state) is fun or balanced. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexs Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 3 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: In this video you attached https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rq053nW9lSg&ab_channel=Hasiru , you can clearly see how you were on Mecha Ares completely unable to kill a single member of our team. After that you changed to HB once again and you quickly managed to get us killed. If mecha is that strong and holy blade is not, just stick to mecha for the whole pvp. We did double mecha that day because HB is a extremely boring class and our members would rather play something else, regardless of how broken it is. I literally said the meta of 2 mechas with other dps supporting them -fire res, u kinda need reading comprehension since we were 1hb and 1mecha and no classes supporting us, and u can see 2mechas pt beating 2 hb pt, so u just acepting that mecha beat hb meta. 3 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: You mentioned AE was still "broken" after first nerf, however here's a post nerf gvg of Stardust using only one AE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UissFXty02E&ab_channel=xSuigetsuux You guys had two players using these two so incredibly strong classes AE and Mecha Ares in this GVG, who got 11 and 8 kills while Losque got 47. Therefore your point of AE being ridiculously strong might just be due to the fact that Losque is a stronger player. I cant take seriously this ahaha i literally didnt say AE is broken unless u taking seriously a SARCASTIC comment abt ice AE xdd you need to learn that SARCASM there is use to make enphasis that AE is not broken aahah and yes, Losque is good, there is no doubt abt that if after first nerf he used to get 40+kills while you and other AEs 10-15kills 3 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: Here you got another gameplay you provided where you start as Mecha Ares, fight half a party in mid. Then you change to HB once again. There are inconsistencies in your arguments, you mentioned Fire AE with two mecha ares is the current overpowered meta, yet you had Fire AE + 3 Mechas and still changed to HB. Guess who got the top kills despite competing against the "current meta". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNMdBYmgExA&t=2s&ab_channel=Alxs And u can clearly see that all the time i was mecha, ur pt was kinda spread or maybe not full, but we were fighting against 5ppl,where literally i dont need big mecha AE to hit 5ppl when i can do it with Hb too, also we have 3 mechas already and im main HB, kinda no sense asking why an HB main back to HB in that situation, a bit of common sense pls and if u talking abt ur HB top kills, u only got 1 kill more than mecha, which contradicts ur argument abt Hb being broken 3 hours ago, xSuigetsuux said: You also mentioned you never get killed by HB and this is all exaggerations yet still only play HB and switch back to it when you started the pvp with a different class. Perhaps a solution is not to play the class with almost half damage taken reduction. I have two clips of you in a different class, they're all I could find with you not on HB over months of pvp. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOtw8Hx8spY&ab_channel=xSuigetsuux In the first clip you can see how your party gets erased in about three seconds of hitting. Second clip is me not even going below >85% hp while your party is focusing me, also not using LW ED combination (which your party did have). You get kited since I do not even need to stop moving like AE to hit you and you get instantly removed from action in around two seconds of gameplay. I slowed down the hitting part so you can see clearly it was all me (I didn't even have Disillusionment, but I don't need it, base build with no procs is enough). I dont know if ur eyes works but u show a short clip of ur pt fighting our capper pt xdd literally all are cappers xd also u can show the entire video and not only cut in the 2 unique kills u did, bc we changed to AoE classes and then ur pt didnt even do a single kill anymore until GA ends Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexs Posted August 10, 2023 Report Share Posted August 10, 2023 2 hours ago, Locsta said: Thanks for your reply. I am not going to jump on a 1v1 arguing about what happened on the game or what you think happened on the game because this is not the right place for it. This has first of all nothing to do with the fact than I enjoy to play AE more than any other class as you seen me playing Holy Blade against you (SD vs Garden) lol and the DMG difference when we had Holy Blade and when we had not was pretty much obvious. I remember a lot of tws being No Holy Blade 0% WR vs Holy Blade 50% WR. Plus you say that I am trying to nerf mecha when I just mentionned that nerfing the class would just be an alternative to leave others class a chance to compete. Saying that Holy Blade does not one shot a lot is not true lol if you compare that class to any other DPS classes, the one shot ratio comparison is just insane LOL. (I think you missunderstand because sometimes the fights last 5 minutes but even there is always someone getting crazy bursted out of nowhere but gets revived so the fight do not end). You also said that its not Holy Blade dealing insane amount of DMG to people with 70 holy res but 20 resistances which is not true at all lmao there is so many times I played HB where I litteraly bursted out people with no debuff on them and there is also many videos you can find where that happened (With ED/LW in pt) Regarding AE being good then I was pretty much complaining in Stardust about AE being META back in the day because this was the only class being played as DPS (sometimes Mecha Ares). Everyone would just run AE and boom boom in TW but as you guys were outnumbering most TW, this class was fun enough to play at some point in order to compete in 10-13 vs 20+. The fact that you could stay in range was really making the class . High DMG and safe at the same time making the possibility to wipe more than a party with only 10. You just have to accept that Holy Blade got too strong right now and its not because no one was playing it while you were that it was not insanely good at that time but it even got stronger right now plus the DMG on the game keep on increasing with release of new gears aka weapon for this content. But as I mentionned earlier there are classes that overshine others and back in that time AE was overshining every other class in term of DPS value. It did happened that I one shot someone on AE with lightning storm lol. Another reason why this hasnt been played is because the class gameplay does not please everyone and now everyone is just forced to use it to win. (or mecha ares) I can relate to AE before its rework, most people who talked to me about the class said it was either too hard or they didnt like the gameplay even though I was doing fine on it but no one was forced to play and no one did play it actually because it wasnt insanely broken enough to being forced to play it. I would like to state however that this is not just me randomly complaining after been through a couple loss on the game. Even back in Stardust when we were winning at some point, we were still complaining about how boring was to play Holy Blade and Mecha Ares. Just letting you know but your answer is typically the reason why no one like to argue or make any post on the forum about what could be better for PvP. now this is pretty much funny that you brought AE Ice being broken and I am not going to argue about it this is just you trying to find a good point to score lol. You're free to use it and tell me whats up lmao. The nerfs asked here is just in order to make the game more fun and as I said, this is me and some others people opinions but now there is the possibility that some players like the current meta of running 2 DPS Classes and 8 support lmao This been just sharing opinions and I hope this would not end up in bad terms as this is just like in order to make the game better and now if you do not share opinions you're free to simply to do it but this hasn't been made to settle scores. PS i do have the video where I got one shot while on ae while having Insight Buff but now it just sounds like its going to end up like childish arguing and proving eachother things to see who is not lying if u gonna take as example ur HB and my HB to said the class is broken meanwhile other 10 players that tried HB had no impact, it just saying its more abt the players than class, im not saying its a weak class, ofc is strong, but if 2Hb are good and 10Hb not having that impact in game, just prove that is more abt how the player use it, u also had big impact using Asura and it not mean its broken ahaha Sorry but i cant believe u taking seriously a SARCASTIC comment abt ice AE Im literally being sarcastic in every comment where i provide ytb links, i even type a face laugh pleaseee help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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