Move SPD Overhaul (PVP / PVE)

[Reikan]

The amount of non-mounted moveSPD available in the game breaks a lot of core components of a healthy gameplay on PVP. In the other hand, it's exhausting to do content on PVE while being slow. 

The idea behind this topic is opening up the subject for discussion, while pointing out important viewpoints that directly affects how the game is perceived by everyone.

PVE:
Running is often done with MoveSPD procs, glyphs, skills and buffs to reach the desired 200% Movement Speed to waltz through the content.
- Boss skills that reinforce the concept of moving away from a specific area, are either too easy, or too hard due to a deep MoveSPD debuff, that hurts even more in case someone dies and lose their buffs;
- Running is less than half efficient if you're not fully buffed, reinforcing the idea of logging multiple accounts for self-buff. That happens in battle maps, but is specially present in dungeon farming.

PVP: 
Doing PVP without MoveSPD buffs leaves you vulnerable to both offensive and defensive weaknessess;
- You can't create an advantage against your enemies, because if they die, in 15~20 seconds they'll reach the place they were before;
- Enemy get hit once, instantly swaps to shield and move away in a 150% MoveSPD pace. If you're playing a short range class or something that has to place skills on ground, due to server lag, the person is long gone before you can follow up, even if you have the same speed;
- Slow is not a valid PVP strategy or component, due to how much speed is involved.

Proposition:
These would only make sense if they were added as a whole, separating each suggestion would be a mess since we'd be lacking MoveSPD in certain contents.

- Removing MoveSPD from Murky Waters, Poem of Wind and Wind of Impatience.
- Lowering the MoveSPD cap to 100%.
- Mounted speed doesn't add to the base, overwriting character speed instead.
- Inside Normal and Special Dungeons, Hero Trials and Dream of Destruction, players get +100% MoveSPD bonuses that doesn't add to the cap, making it possible to reach 200% with gears and achievements.
- Inside Vingot Lab, Devastation Dimension, Battle of Time and Space, Dimension of Souls, Dragonside Ridge and Demonic Valley, players get +100% MoveSPD bonuses that doesn't add to the cap, making it possible to reach 200% with gears and achievements.

[Nanami]

Personally I don't think it's necessary to nerf move speed buffs or move speed cap again.
A lot of people don't have all the time in the world to farm dungeons, run trials, etc so move speed buffing saving them a few minutes per palace run is quite helpful even more so if the person is under geared and already takes a long time to from point A (entrance) to point B (the end of the dungeon).

As far as it goes for other PvE, do tell me what PvE specifically benefits from it that much? I've done many CC runs and seen many people die or not get move speed buffs and still preform the same times without the buffs (not to mention certain bosses purify our buffs in PvE). AT/DF is the same story so I'm curious as to what PvE really benefits from it so much to nerf it aside from gold farming.

As far as PvP goes you die and have to rebuff every single time you die if you plan to keep up those buffs, more often than not a lot of people don't do that unless they are soloing anyway so why should they not have the extra boost of stats when they're alone? Parties who actually are trying generally buff at the start of TW and don't get rebuffed unless the class is inside of the party because it's hard to do so in the middle of a fight. 

Oh let's not forget move speed pet is a thing so if someone has it and you don't when your buffs are nerfed, good luck chasing them down ~

[xSuigetsuux]

People walking away in pvp is not really an issue. If you're attacking then you can cap the crystal, and if you are defending then you succeded. Additionally lower move speed cap would make it real hard to react to cap and run strategies, which already was a problem in the past where guilds avoided pvp and treated pvp maps as pve.

I also do not see why we should aim to become "vulnerable", sounds like you're looking for a lower cap meta where one side is completely wiped every fight. With the classes we are forced to use this is not happening anymore. The only way to survive hb oneshots even at 70 resistances is 4/5 healers, leaving smaller room to aoe wiper classes.

I'm not gonna comment about pve since Cassie let it clear enough. There are other more relevant issues to fix regarding pvp than move speed.

[Reikan]

15 hours ago, Nanami said:

[...]

You literally skipped my entire suggestion.

"- Inside Normal and Special Dungeons, Hero Trials and Dream of Destruction, players get +100% MoveSPD bonuses that doesn't add to the cap, making it possible to reach 200% with gears and achievements."

About MoveSPD pet: It should be an advantage, considering people invested into it while giving away another positive status that could fill that role (say, -7% DMG Taken). 

A point that many are skipping: 
20% MoveSPD from achievements
5% MoveSPD from Wind Meteor
5% MoveSPD from Gale Enchant
10% MoveSPD from Quick Passing II certificate
10% MoveSPD from Great Ranger's Protection (Path of Destiny)
5% MoveSPD from Purified Crystal
15% MoveSPD from Rhythm of Love (Spouse buff)
Total: 70% MoveSPD. On this, i'm not counting:
5% MoveSPD from Vigorous Step (Recommended Event)
20% MoveSPD from Expert Hunter (Pet Pray)
20% MoveSPD from Super Boots (Pet Pray)
5% from Jordan's Blessing (Guild Statue)
Any possible extention to MoveSPD gear swapping, such as Ixnas Bland Core (Trophy, +25% MoveSPD with Sniper Enchant)

Meaning that today, someone can have 180% MoveSPD by idling, not counting gear procs or gear swaps. 

"The only way to survive hb oneshots even at 70 resistances is 4/5 healers, leaving smaller room to aoe wiper classes."

To me, this is more of a class concern that a PVP issue, since it cleraly points out a finger to a single class, which IMO should be adressed in another fashion.

[Fenril]

"The amount of non-mounted moveSPD available in the game breaks a lot of core components of a healthy gameplay on PVP. In the other hand, it's exhausting to do content on PVE while being slow."

I agree. I'm actually pretty happy with the ammount of speed I get from every source when it comes to doing Palace of Dreams or Running... the problem is: buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff every 10, 15 or 30 minutes. I actually never really understood why every buff have a different duration. It is something that I can't understand, no matter how hard I try. I see no practicality in this, nor a decent reason for things to be this way. Plus I always need to log a second account to keep around, buffing me. Not a huge problem for me, but I admit that having native-movespeed-buffs on specific pve maps would be a very welcoming QoL improvement. (If my memory serves me well, Jordan actually gave us a huge movement speed buff on Shaxian Fae Field and that was awesome. It wouldn't take me 1:20 to fully-complete my entries anymore. I'd do it in 30~40 minutes.)

On PvP, though, we do have a lot of movespeed indeed. This is something I pointed out a few years ago when I talked about latency. We have so much movespeed that those with 150+ms sometimes just realize they're under attack when the enemy team is already casting their 3rd, 4th skill already. That happened at yesterday's TW. When we realized that Garden was approaching the crystal, they were already "on top of our chests, trying to strangle us". Sometimes we just get cc'ed "by the wind" before we can actually see who's cc'ing us. Not to mention classes such as Assassin, Berserker, Blade Master, and all classes that are ''meele'' and have a ''dash ability''... those skills often "hit the air", 'cause we have so much movespeed that your target isn't even there anymore, has gone 3-4s ago, but "its ghost" remained there.

"Oh, but that's your problem, you're the one with the "slower connection".

Well, latency and connection speed are not the same thing. Plus, this server houses people from all around the world, specially Latin America, North America, Europe, sometimes even Australia and Asia. If only people from North America gets to play with 20ms or less, then we can easily reach the conclusion that too much movespeed is actually harming players from other countries, thus providing North-americans a clear advantage on pvp (taking in consideration that the server is located in Canada; if the server is located in France, then Europeans gets the advantage and benefits more from excessive ammount of movespeed we have; I think you get the point).

"Oh let's not forget move speed pet is a thing so if someone has it and you don't when your buffs are nerfed, good luck chasing them down."

Yeah, this is a problem. One that could easily be solved by nerfing the ammount of movespeed these pets provide. But then, another problem would rise up... one that's been haunting this community ever since the release of this server: nerfing = comitting an atrocity.  This is how people see things here, and the reason why Jordan was unfairly flamed in the past. Do you remember when Conjurers had a 16s fear, with no fear immunity? This was prior to the release of Awakened DoS sets. Sometimes, we would get feared and would fear the enemies parties and we would reach a stall. I once participated in a GvG that my party found the enemy's party between northwest and southwest crystals... we feared each other for 30 minutes. It was insane. When Jordan nerfed Conjurer's fear and added an imunity, at least 10 people flamed him. They didn't care if it was the ''right move'' (to nerf that stupid fear). They just felt like they were losing something, thus "Jordan had to be blamed". Nobody likes to lose something. We all get upset. But if we manage to see the whole situation "from above", like if we were watching a chess match, then we can clearly understand why the Queen (Conjurer) was the most OP piece in that board. We all need to try and see things from different perspectives, even if sometimes we need to nerf or adjust something. Sometimes, we may win more from nerfing specific points than lose. 😉

 

 

[Nanami]

12 hours ago, Reikan said:

A point that many are skipping: 
20% MoveSPD from achievements
5% MoveSPD from Wind Meteor
5% MoveSPD from Gale Enchant
10% MoveSPD from Quick Passing II certificate
10% MoveSPD from Great Ranger's Protection (Path of Destiny)
5% MoveSPD from Purified Crystal
15% MoveSPD from Rhythm of Love (Spouse buff)
Total: 70% MoveSPD. On this, i'm not counting:
5% MoveSPD from Vigorous Step (Recommended Event)
20% MoveSPD from Expert Hunter (Pet Pray)
20% MoveSPD from Super Boots (Pet Pray)
5% from Jordan's Blessing (Guild Statue)
Any possible extention to MoveSPD gear swapping, such as Ixnas Bland Core (Trophy, +25% MoveSPD with Sniper Enchant)
 

As I stated not always do people have ALLLLLL of those buffs at the exact same time, especially during PvP because you die and lose buffs and the majority of people that have all class buffs are people soloing.. so again I do not see a necessity for a nerf. 
 

I've said my thoughts on it and will be done now. ^^

[Akyme]

Hello !

On 7/18/2023 at 8:38 PM, Reikan said:

PVE:
- Boss skills that reinforce the concept of moving away from a specific area, are either too easy, or too hard due to a deep MoveSPD debuff, that hurts even more in case someone dies and lose their buffs;
- Running is less than half efficient if you're not fully buffed, reinforcing the idea of logging multiple accounts for self-buff. That happens in battle maps, but is specially present in dungeon farming.

This is more about a gear / skill issue. If you die in PvE, it means you're not geared enough or the gameplay isn't good enough. As example, I'll just say that we can run AT / DF without a healer. There are enough way to recover HP by yourself, having a healer is just to make it safer.

 

On 7/18/2023 at 8:38 PM, Reikan said:

PVP: 
Doing PVP without MoveSPD buffs leaves you vulnerable to both offensive and defensive weaknessess;
- You can't create an advantage against your enemies, because if they die, in 15~20 seconds they'll reach the place they were before;
- Enemy get hit once, instantly swaps to shield and move away in a 150% MoveSPD pace. If you're playing a short range class or something that has to place skills on ground, due to server lag, the person is long gone before you can follow up, even if you have the same speed;
- Slow is not a valid PVP strategy or component, due to how much speed is involved.

In a fight, if you kill a player, your ennemies will have to move back and you'll get the advantage. If you're not able to kill them in that time, it usually mean that you'll lose the fight anyway.
However, if you win the fight, then it's nice ! It means they'll be back in the fight faster, it's too boring having to wait forever that they're coming back. It used to be an issue in AeriaGame server because of Mana Infusion. Player stayed in spawn waiting for their Mana Infusion to be back (1min30 reload), and so ennemies player were just walking around in the map.
If the player swapping to shield is moving away, it's gameplay issue. It means you didn't controled him / he was controled before but didn't get killed so he got immunity.

On 7/18/2023 at 8:38 PM, Reikan said:

- Removing MoveSPD from Murky Waters, Poem of Wind and Wind of Impatience.
- Lowering the MoveSPD cap to 100%.
- Mounted speed doesn't add to the base, overwriting character speed instead.
- Inside Normal and Special Dungeons, Hero Trials and Dream of Destruction, players get +100% MoveSPD bonuses that doesn't add to the cap, making it possible to reach 200% with gears and achievements.
- Inside Vingot Lab, Devastation Dimension, Battle of Time and Space, Dimension of Souls, Dragonside Ridge and Demonic Valley, players get +100% MoveSPD bonuses that doesn't add to the cap, making it possible to reach 200% with gears and achievements.

This would actually break game content. What's the point making some specific gems, pet fuse, whatever to increase the move speed of your char ? It would be unfair for player hard working on it, and would be unfair to items increasing move speed, making some of them useless.
If everyone is having run spd +100% in Demonic Valley or other maps, what's the point making an op running char ? This is more an help for newbies that has nothing to do here, than a game change to increase game quality.
 

On 7/20/2023 at 2:43 AM, Nanami said:

so again I do not see a necessity for a nerf. 

I fully agree. It's all about gameplay / gear issue. Everyone can reach the same amount of move speed, and it doesn't ruin anything anywhere. It can be annoying for caster classes in PvP, but in a fight, the ennemy team usually get controled so they don't move. And even without control, a 10vs10 fight for example, is mostly static than running.

Thanks for reading,
Yato