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Whippers and their Arkana pulls


coctanic36
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Whippers had stuns removed from Hook and Sinker I & II and were given additional ch acc / acc on said skills instead to justify the removal of stun. Well they cried so much that they got their stuns back but kept the additional ch acc / acc on them? Is this subject to change or not?

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Like you mentioned making any change at all to WH is a ... touchy subject.
Of course for any class a change can be upsetting especially if they don't like it or see the reason behind it. WH has been under discussion a few times and we don't currently have a change that can help without making the players of that class angry like last time. We do need to work on a few classes including whipper but we need to be careful about how we do it,

I admit there needs to be a pro and con for a skill like a pull or AOE pull. At the moment there isn't really any risk for whippers to pull because their attacker will be stunned and easily disabled then locked down (experienced myself every..single..day)

Also whipper players please keep this conversation civil, its a discussion about your class not a human rights war

Edited by monoki
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Thank you for the reply.

Stun on Hook and Sinker I & II was removed, as a compromise CH ACC / ACC was given to the said skill. WH players turn into an angry mob and protest. Return Stun and remove the compromised CH ACC / ACC. WH players are happy again and have nothing to be upset about.

Returning Stun was fine, but not removing the compromise for it wasn't because now as you said there's no risk for whippers to pull since it hardly has a chance to miss making other classes suffer especially those that are supposed to excel at CH EVA / EVA allowing WH's not having to think about when and who to pull anymore.

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If a WH can have a base ch-acc of 250% like all others the nerf to their skills should happen just like the nerf to the SW's ch-acc buff should happen. Now having said that their pulls rely on their acc and personally there's the choice get stunned or get pulled, that should be the options I think. If I can't block either one while buffed, I would say that both should be nerfed. It shouldn't be a sucks for you that nobody can get either eva or ch-eva to keep from being pulled or stunned. If both happen because the player focused on Crit-void or crit-eva, well that's on that player, but one shouldn't just easily get stunned if they have ch-eva and one shouldn't easily get pulled if they are eva.

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Playing Whipper myself, I think they should just remove that acc/ch-acc bonus; we were fine without it. On top of that, we can basically disable/stun someone for more than 15 sec straight in Arkana. Maybe a small nerf on the duration of the aoe pull? 

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10 hours ago, GoddessSand said:

If a WH can have a base ch-acc of 250% like all others the nerf to their skills should happen just like the nerf to the SW's ch-acc buff should happen. Now having said that their pulls rely on their acc and personally there's the choice get stunned or get pulled, that should be the options I think. If I can't block either one while buffed, I would say that both should be nerfed. It shouldn't be a sucks for you that nobody can get either eva or ch-eva to keep from being pulled or stunned. If both happen because the player focused on Crit-void or crit-eva, well that's on that player, but one shouldn't just easily get stunned if they have ch-eva and one shouldn't easily get pulled if they are eva.

SWs I don't see any problems avoiding the pulls themselves.  It's the stun we always get hit despite having all of our eva/ch-eva buffs up. I'm not going to bother posting %s with Binomial Distribution when there are probabilities ranging from .85 to .95 for those pulls.  If anything, keep the ACC the way it is so WH has better chances of pulling SEs.  During the time that WH lost her pull stuns, it was a struggle to catch SEs even with near perfect ACC randoms and uni rank 2 ACC jewels.

 

I also agree with Daddy's statement regarding the AoE.  WH has enough survivability that I can wait for the perfect moment to aim and catch critical players in the opposing team with it the way it is.  That is easy to do.

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1 hour ago, Norleras said:

SWs I don't see any problems avoiding the pulls themselves.  It's the stun we always get hit despite having all of our eva/ch-eva buffs up. I'm not going to bother posting %s with Binomial Distribution when there are probabilities ranging from .85 to .95 for those pulls.  If anything, keep the ACC the way it is so WH has better chances of pulling SEs.  During the time that WH lost her pull stuns, it was a struggle to catch SEs even with near perfect ACC randoms and uni rank 2 ACC jewels.

 

When I talk of nerfing acc/ch-acc I am talking about a small amount not some overly done way, but there should be a slight chance to miss more than not.

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6 minutes ago, Spektar said:

Another problem is when PU activates Firing Squad, which means that she cannot move, but still can be pulled by WH.

And that is not the way Firing Squad should work.

it not becoz u think it not lol. Actually , that best way to deal dame as PU if u can survival, they pull u, and u jump, u do aoe to thier back.GG 

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OK so lets look at this sensibly, ie why the whipper needs the ACC on the pulls

So wh is a mele class along with SW, DE and CB so needs to close distance. CB can pull (and with Ice can get much more success than a WH can) but the main way the other classes close the gap to PVP is with a charge type skill, now there is a huge difference between charge and pull.

If a  wh misses the pull they do not close the gap, if a charge is missed you still close the gap so this is a massive advantage for charge skills. OK pull has a big advantage in that you can do more to disrupt in bigger pvp but again miss and you expose yourself to counter pulls (and lets face it wh isn't dodging much). 

 

Now lets look at the complete package 

Of the mele units, which class is the only not to have a cleanse? that's the WH

the other 3 mele classes have speed boosts the WH has a speed debuff (making acc on pulls more important)

of the 3 "tank" classes the wh has the worst defence buff

of the 3 "tank classes the wh is the only one without a self heal skill

Of all classes the whipper is the only one to have no attack boost skills at all!

All the wh has is AOE and higher acc than any other class (the higher acc has always been the case but since 65 cap this has gone you only get it in pulls)

There is a constant rhetoric against wh when other classes have huge advantages. The only class a wh has an advantage on 1v1 is the SE. 

Since 49 cap in asb the DPS classes have had a so easy life, easily being able to kill all but the tankiest people in stun lock (Hardly skillfull play to learn to hit a few buttons in order). this is what needs fixing not nerfing a class that struggles to run its function int the game.

More that needs fixing is closing out the exploits! Certain people have killed pvp with constant abuse by cheating with exploits (with no bans ever being long and them being free to come back and do the same again). 

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On 5/14/2019 at 10:21 AM, Spektar said:

Another problem is when PU activates Firing Squad, which means that she cannot move, but still can be pulled by WH.

And that is not the way Firing Squad should work.

its kinda cool when Im on firing squad out of range of everyone and some wh pulls me, then I just use detonation and wildfire in his face and boom rip whipper. but I agree that wh's acc and ch-acc from pulls should be nerfed. 

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On 5/18/2019 at 9:24 AM, Uninformed said:

OK so lets look at this sensibly, ie why the whipper needs the ACC on the pulls

So wh is a mele class along with SW, DE and CB so needs to close distance. CB can pull (and with Ice can get much more success than a WH can) but the main way the other classes close the gap to PVP is with a charge type skill, now there is a huge difference between charge and pull.

If a  wh misses the pull they do not close the gap, if a charge is missed you still close the gap so this is a massive advantage for charge skills. OK pull has a big advantage in that you can do more to disrupt in bigger pvp but again miss and you expose yourself to counter pulls (and lets face it wh isn't dodging much). 

 

Now lets look at the complete package 

Of the mele units, which class is the only not to have a cleanse? that's the WH

the other 3 mele classes have speed boosts the WH has a speed debuff (making acc on pulls more important)

of the 3 "tank" classes the wh has the worst defence buff

of the 3 "tank classes the wh is the only one without a self heal skill

Of all classes the whipper is the only one to have no attack boost skills at all!

All the wh has is AOE and higher acc than any other class (the higher acc has always been the case but since 65 cap this has gone you only get it in pulls)

There is a constant rhetoric against wh when other classes have huge advantages. The only class a wh has an advantage on 1v1 is the SE. 

Since 49 cap in asb the DPS classes have had a so easy life, easily being able to kill all but the tankiest people in stun lock (Hardly skillfull play to learn to hit a few buttons in order). this is what needs fixing not nerfing a class that struggles to run its function int the game.

More that needs fixing is closing out the exploits! Certain people have killed pvp with constant abuse by cheating with exploits (with no bans ever being long and them being free to come back and do the same again). 

This. He said it better than I could. Whippers have ONE iconic attack-and ASB gave that to CBs, so we don't even have that exclusively-and players who want it easy seem to be constantly looking for ways to make other classes weaker. Whippers tank poorly, (Unless they focus on just doing that, then they have the hitting power of a sleepy kitten.), they DPS poorly, they're slow and can't close the distance with any dangerous class, EXCEPT with the Hook and you want to nerf that. You already screwed up Hook and Sinker II with the awkward addition of needing to move the mouse over a target that is already targeted and click on it after activating the skill. And don't tell me about the "awesome" Mech Speed Buff. There's a second delay in which your mech comes to a complete stop when you activate that skill and it still can't chase down most speed classes.

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@Uninformed@MichelleZhivago

 

  • 3 hours ago, MichelleZhivago said:

    Whippers tank poorly, (Unless they focus on just doing that, then they have the hitting power of a sleepy kitten.), they DPS poorly

     
    • The ability to tank with Whipper this cap is looking very nice with the new and improved buffs, the duration/cooldown ratios are giving me anxiety.
    • The ability to apply the biggest void/ch resist reduction to your opponents avaliable in game, no other melee class can reduce ch resist, let alone reduce it to multiple targets at once.

 

  • On 5/18/2019 at 5:24 PM, Uninformed said:

    the main way the other classes close the gap to PVP is with a charge type skill, now there is a huge difference between charge and pull.
    If a  wh misses the pull they do not close the gap, if a charge is missed you still close the gap so this is a massive advantage for charge skills. OK pull has a big advantage in that you can do more to disrupt in bigger pvp

  • 3 hours ago, MichelleZhivago said:

    can't close the distance with any dangerous class, EXCEPT with the Hook and you want to nerf that.

     
    • A dash that literally throws you in harms way of the enemy team the moment you use it whether it misses or not and does not benefit your team at all isn't really comparable to the ability of pulling opponents to the vicinity of yourself and your team who then just pummel any unlucky soul that has been targeted by your pull despite having buffs to try and evade them.

 

  • On 5/18/2019 at 5:24 PM, Uninformed said:

    CB can pull (and with Ice can get much more success than a WH can)

     
    • They absolutely should after all they sacrifice a good utility skill and have to enter mech to make that happen.

 

  • On 5/18/2019 at 5:24 PM, Uninformed said:

    the other 3 mele classes have speed boosts the WH has a speed debuff (making acc on pulls more important)

  • 3 hours ago, MichelleZhivago said:

     And don't tell me about the "awesome" Mech Speed Buff. There's a second delay in which your mech comes to a complete stop when you activate that skill and it still can't chase down most speed classes.

     
    • Like it or not Whippers have a speed buff, one of the highest ones not to mention that it comes without having to spend any skill points for it.

 

  • On 5/18/2019 at 5:24 PM, Uninformed said:

    of the 3 "tank" classes the wh has the worst defence buff

     
    • Whippers have the best Defense buff and can reach the highest Defense

 

  • On 5/18/2019 at 5:24 PM, Uninformed said:

    Of the mele units, which class is the only not to have a cleanse? that's the WH

    Of all classes the whipper is the only one to have no attack boost skills at all!

    of the 3 "tank" classes the wh is the only one without a self heal skill

     
    • of the 4 melee classes, which class is the only one with 3 Arkana stun abilities (2 of them pull, thank god)? That's the WH, other melee classes have 1 each
    • of the 3 "tank" classes, which class is the only one with a ch resist debuff (and its aoe, mamma mia)? That's the WH

 

That being said, yes Whippers dont have access to all the abilities other melee classes have but no other class has all the abilities Whippers have so I don't know why you're pointing it out. This is all fine though, these are your core abilities that were there before the whole "rebalance" mess.

This threads concern is about not removing the compromise that was given to Whippers upon the removal of stun on pulls, when the stun was returned. This is an indirect nerf to all the other classes that are supposed to excel at not being pulled easily, while giving Whippers the luxury of being able to succesfuly pull any target that is in the range of their pull without having to give it any second thoughts. Whippers are the only class with the benefit of having extra CH ACC / ACC on 2 of their stun abilities, that coincidentally also pull their enemies.

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On 5/18/2019 at 12:24 PM, Uninformed said:

OK so lets look at this sensibly, ie why the whipper needs the ACC on the pulls

So wh is a mele class along with SW, DE and CB so needs to close distance. CB can pull (and with Ice can get much more success than a WH can) but the main way the other classes close the gap to PVP is with a charge type skill, now there is a huge difference between charge and pull.

If a  wh misses the pull they do not close the gap, if a charge is missed you still close the gap so this is a massive advantage for charge skills. OK pull has a big advantage in that you can do more to disrupt in bigger pvp but again miss and you expose yourself to counter pulls (and lets face it wh isn't dodging much). 

 

Now lets look at the complete package 

Of the mele units, which class is the only not to have a cleanse? that's the WH

the other 3 mele classes have speed boosts the WH has a speed debuff (making acc on pulls more important)

of the 3 "tank" classes the wh has the worst defence buff

of the 3 "tank classes the wh is the only one without a self heal skill

Of all classes the whipper is the only one to have no attack boost skills at all!

All the wh has is AOE and higher acc than any other class (the higher acc has always been the case but since 65 cap this has gone you only get it in pulls)

There is a constant rhetoric against wh when other classes have huge advantages. The only class a wh has an advantage on 1v1 is the SE. 

Since 49 cap in asb the DPS classes have had a so easy life, easily being able to kill all but the tankiest people in stun lock (Hardly skillfull play to learn to hit a few buttons in order). this is what needs fixing not nerfing a class that struggles to run its function int the game.

More that needs fixing is closing out the exploits! Certain people have killed pvp with constant abuse by cheating with exploits (with no bans ever being long and them being free to come back and do the same again). 

You really live up to your name, let's go.


"Now lets look at the complete package

Of the mele units, which class is the only one not to have a cleanse? that's the WH

the other 3 mele classes have speed boosts the WH has a speed debuff (making acc on pulls more important)

of the 3 "tank" classes the wh has the worst defense buff

of the 3 "tank classes" is the only one without a self heal skill"


These 4 points are refuted with just one remark, whipper has the mildest debuff while using her buffs than ALL of these other classes, for a CB or DE make a tank role they basically reduce their dmg potential to 0, Whipper loses only movespeed and that it still doesn't affect her so much, because she can use bike and ignore this debuff or use the movespeed buff of its mech form, so in the end it does not cost ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for she get the following

4500 Crit-VOID
730 DEF
3600 VOID
4950 in all CH-Resists
750 Crit-EVA.

Those are too strong buffs for a class that needs to give up of very little of her status when it activates them, and are buffs that have an eternity of duration and have an extremely low cooldown because one of these buffs has only 5 SECONDS time window to abuse, because it have 35 sec duration and has 40 sec cd, and the other one has a duration of 30 sec and has 45 sec of cd, she has THE SMALLEST WINDOW TIME between buffs to be abused between buffs duration and cd of all classes.

The other classes that have defensive buffs that do not cause any kind of debuff like Sentinel for example receive the following

5000 EVA
2200 VOID
2000 Crit-EVA.
100 DEF

And this buff has a time window of 20 SECONDS where the SE is vulnerable.

In the end WH can use their buffs and while they are active she can cause MUCH MORE DAMAGE than a CB or an DE could cause when activating their defensive buffs, while this she has a stunlock much, but really much bigger than the respective ones classes. These Whipper buffs only would be fair if she had 0 dmg potential when need to use them just like the DE and the CB, or if her stuns got heavy nerfs, but lose only 26 movespeed to get this? not! there isn't a way this be fair at all.

In relation to the other points there is nothing worth my time to comment after all is everything bullshit, since I started playing this game I didn't find a DPS class that can kill a tank while they use their buffs, being that in the case of WH the same manages to tank and still have damage enough to kill any squishy class during her stunlock.

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25 minutes ago, Daddy said:

Lol  wh has bad buff???

 

also wh has 4 pulls 2 are aoe. Cb has 1 pull 1 charge. De has 2 charge 

both de and cb have disable charges that were nerfed. 

And this is another point, WH have tank potential but her skills don't makes sense for a "tank". DE and CB has gapcloses, ie, they need to put yourself in high risk during a team fight jumping in a middle enemy team and this make sense because they're "tanks" and need to get enemies attack focus to help their team (well, CB during guardians shout only :P), WH don't need to put yourself in risk, btw, she can put the enemy in a situation that they'll be without position and in a high risk position that almost everytime means death to this poor target.

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No offence to some WH players but... are you guys even playing your class properly? 
I have gone over the whipper class so many times and came to the conclusion that they are a secondary support class outside of medic. Whippers entire kit is literally defence, de-buff and CC, that's what they are designed to do. Whipper isn't going to excel as a fighter because nothing in their kit supports that at all.
Out of all classes whipper has tonnes of defence support, if your building her as anything but a tank then of course all that defence is going to go down the drain. The way I see it her intent in battle is to use her skills to pull, de-buff and lock down her target FOR THE DPS CLASSES SHES ALLIED WITH and to tank damage from the enemies she pulls while doing so. Sure some whippers can manage some damage but lets not sit here and complain your defence and so on is bad if you have built her wrong.

Your a tank CC support, not a DPS and not a healer

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