Sabin

balancing the game

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my personal suggestion to fix the launcher where people can open multiple accounts from a single launcher. 

if there will be 1 account per launcher/ pc then there will be less people swapping sides.
for example EmilySear: she would just go to the winning side all the time. for the fact she will have her account afk near the portal. there are instances where a fight could be won with just a little bit more teamwork but instead people will just swap to the winning side (it makes the other side handicapped). emily is just an example. but there are alot of people who just switch to the winning side.

 

this wont balance the game but atleast it wont handicap the sides as it takes a while to login. 

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The reason the launcher was set up like this is because there was a need of a work around regarding Xigncode.  It was not established because we wanted to to allow dual logging.  It was simply because Xigncode is a piece of crap.

Edited by Norleras

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11 hours ago, Sabin said:

my personal suggestion to fix the launcher where people can open multiple accounts from a single launcher. 

if there will be 1 account per launcher/ pc then there will be less people swapping sides.
for example EmilySear: she would just go to the winning side all the time. for the fact she will have her account afk near the portal. there are instances where a fight could be won with just a little bit more teamwork but instead people will just swap to the winning side (it makes the other side handicapped). emily is just an example. but there are alot of people who just switch to the winning side.

 

this wont balance the game but atleast it wont handicap the sides as it takes a while to login. 

this stuff has been an issue since ASB anyway, it's just a part of game now.

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No FC or dual log prevention will do anything to balance the game with players, players must balance it themselves. The long wait period is also what hinders people from switching sides to balance the game too, so while you might think that players will switch to winning side there are players who would switch to help balance the game out if they can. For the most part people will pretty much so up on the side they want to win or will win especially with the need for certain items so that they could craft new mech and cyberskins.

The issue I have is the expressed desire for winning that players will avoid pvp, especially an entire faction going so far as to stay in the spawn area refusing to enter the pvp field so that they could win even though it's against the rules of the game.

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I really agree that people duo-logging is an issue, but as everyone said above Xigncode is lame, so there isn't much that can be done. Only possible option would be making duo-logging bannable if they are duo-logging on two different factions, but then a lot of players would probably get banned because it's not abnormal. Heck, I would propose that duo-logging in PvP zones should be bannable at least, but our player base is very small and would just make people get mad and cry over it.

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I made a suggestion like this months ago, restricting access by each IP to 1 user only.  Giving restriction or granting access depending on group or subgroups of people (GM,GS, normal user). Was rejected with no explanation at all, except they just cant. 

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The IP thing would be easy to get around. 

 

Problem is people going on the winning side or people putting a snitch on the losing side. There are also those who won't help.

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On 3/17/2020 at 5:48 AM, Beau said:

I made a suggestion like this months ago, restricting access by each IP to 1 user only.  Giving restriction or granting access depending on group or subgroups of people (GM,GS, normal user). Was rejected with no explanation at all, except they just cant. 

IP restrictions can be an issue when VPNs are involved, and many players use them.3

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On 3/16/2020 at 6:48 PM, Beau said:

I made a suggestion like this months ago, restricting access by each IP to 1 user only.  Giving restriction or granting access depending on group or subgroups of people (GM,GS, normal user). Was rejected with no explanation at all, except they just cant. 

I don't believe an explanation is necessary though for every suggestion put forward. If you think of an idea write it down and come back to it a few days later, you will probably see it from a different eye and with the one you suggested it's not as if you're the first to ask for such a feature and perhaps it's been explained there?

IP Blocks don't generally work, you've got huge publishers IP blocking a lot of games that should remain in specific regions. Does that stop anyone from anywhere else logging in? No it doesn't and in fact VPN's and Proxies are so easy to come by these days it's not as if it's a technical area either.

Now we could make it more difficult for people that's most certainly an option. But this wouldn't help and those who bypass would only share such bypass and then we're back to square one. It's not as if we're sat depending on just your suggestions for content, we do actually discuss a lot of areas and options.

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It is true that you can use VPN to change IP,  the point of it tho is to make sure 1 account is logged in per IP, it doesnt matter if they change IP multiple times, bypass country restriction and software instance limitation is different. If youre a bit confused let's put it this way,  program the launcher so that you can only use 1 SB at a time from there we can just pick off people who still try to violate.  That last sentence is like you saying "since we cannot stop people from finding ways to bypass our security then lets just leave it that way ez pizi", come on bash get serious. 

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1 hour ago, Beau said:

It is true that you can use VPN to change IP,  the point of it tho is to make sure 1 account is logged in per IP, it doesnt matter if they change IP multiple times, bypass country restriction and software instance limitation is different. If youre a bit confused let's put it this way,  program the launcher so that you can only use 1 SB at a time from there we can just pick off people who still try to violate.  That last sentence is like you saying "since we cannot stop people from finding ways to bypass our security then lets just leave it that way ez pizi", come on bash get serious. 

I'm at a loss for words right now, I've re-wrote this response about 10 times to not try rub off wrong, if I do I am sorry.

You are aware there are many programs out there that can attach a connection to just one process right? Yes it is possible we can add an IP check to the login, but just go and get any Proxy Client or VPN Client and you will see this is an option and it's very easy to use.

I want to just say a few things:

  • We've made it clear we don't have source code so this cannot be added to the game client or game server files. NosTale for instance had this check, people still bypassed it due to using such programs (asking us to try detect such programs is also not possible, easy rename process tools are available for free and well we don't have source for the game in doing so).
     
  • You're not taking into account people who play with their family, relationship or friends in the same premises. Is it fair to them that we now lock to one IP per login? I'll also add a lot of people use public VPN services that provide better ping for video games, is it fair to them if they're on the same node?
     
  • Going back to the "We can add an IP check to Login" I said above, how do we check the connection is still active without source? The logout check is delayed by 5 minutes so if you relog you have to wait 5 minutes to even intiate this check and even sometimes your login sticks via a bug with the login server, so then people are locked out of the game now?

I can list many other reasons why this won't work out but asking me to "get serious" is kinda rude. I'm glad this work seems easy to you, you're wasting your talents playing video games.

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Well atleast you understand the point of what I am saying now there are ways but we just cant,  well if these average script kitty can easily bypass these stuffs then we are fucked without anything at the management's disposal, guess we can really settle out with these things are atm,  yeah I work and play, we're in the same line of work and the pay is good to the point Im only waiting for the company's back pay been working for years and it is getting boring,  hence why Im finding a niche game to play. 

It does not matter if the said player's father is using a WH and his mother is using a Medic as long as we can limit the use of toon at 1 PC at a time, it is okay. Atm they can let their toons sit inside BG,NB,AK and switch on the fly by tabbing.

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27 minutes ago, Beau said:

Well atleast you understand the point of what I am saying now there are ways but we just cant,  well if these average script kitty can easily bypass these stuffs then we are fucked without anything at the management's disposal, guess we can really settle out with these things are atm,  yeah I work and play, we're in the same line of work and the pay is good to the point Im only waiting for the company's back pay been working for years and it is getting boring,  hence why Im finding a niche game to play. 

It does not matter if the said player's father is using a WH and his mother is using a Medic as long as we can limit the use of toon at 1 PC at a time, it is okay. Atm they can let their toons sit inside BG,NB,AK and switch on the fly by tabbing.

If you work in this line of work then you can understand that hardware identification is a hard ask as again it can be manipulated all very easy.

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That MAC address identification is  almost nearly impossible as every piece of card is registered differently if you go wired it has it's own, if you go wifi it also has its own unique MAC,  plus there is the manufacturers who mostly uses identical architecture for their products. Best thing is stick with IP manipulation. But I dunno Im here to play not to work. 

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On 3/22/2020 at 11:08 AM, Beau said:

That MAC address identification is  almost nearly impossible as every piece of card is registered differently if you go wired it has it's own, if you go wifi it also has its own unique MAC,  plus there is the manufacturers who mostly uses identical architecture for their products. Best thing is stick with IP manipulation. But I dunno Im here to play not to work. 

MAC Address is one of the easiest to manipulate due to it's format, when you're identifying hardware I've seen in the past clients using machine name, ip/mac and then signature of hdd. This data is then hashed and sent to help match and identify accounts to one another, how did you think I found that out? Reverse Engineering.... I then could manipulate this output by changing any of the 3 listed areas voila bypass. You can suggest encryption or any form of data handling and again if it's in the client it can be found, again someone who states to have high enough credentials should know and understand this as it is not 2005 anymore.

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LOL,  okay good now if you can get  directly the mac address of everyone it will be easier no need to worry about the IP we can we it straight in such a way that players can only log 1 account per MAC address. This 48 bit register code can only be accessed if are connected in the same LAN connection, when the information travels, that information is sent to your network adapter and when it is passed to the router your PC's mac address is then removed, when your router send information further into the upstream to the ISP then it contains your router's mac address, when your ISP try to communicate through other networks in the internet it will always contain the ISP's MAC address and the cycle continues, to make it short your own MAC address can NEVER go further than the first networking equipment, To make it worse the new ipv4/ipv6 protocol always makes sure that there is always a node or a server connection that handles 2 different connections  trying to communicate with each other to ensure no direct contact is made, it serve as a middle man where I can leave my information there for the connecting party to pick up. This make sures anonymousity all the times. That mac address you rEverSe EnGinEerInG might be the mac address of the last router before I can connect to your server. Routing will always dictate the path and the further a single player is from vendetta the more jumps it need to connect to your address. 

 

But ignore the long lecture,  I am waiting for you to do it since you said you already reverse engineer the whole thing. 

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1 hour ago, Beau said:

LOL,  okay good now if you can get  directly the mac address of everyone it will be easier no need to worry about the IP we can we it straight in such a way that players can only log 1 account per MAC address. This 48 bit register code can only be accessed if are connected in the same LAN connection, when the information travels, that information is sent to your network adapter and when it is passed to the router your PC's mac address is then removed, when your router send information further into the upstream to the ISP then it contains your router's mac address, when your ISP try to communicate through other networks in the internet it will always contain the ISP's MAC address and the cycle continues, to make it short your own MAC address can NEVER go further than the first networking equipment, To make it worse the new ipv4/ipv6 protocol always makes sure that there is always a node or a server connection that handles 2 different connections  trying to communicate with each other to ensure no direct contact is made, it serve as a middle man where I can leave my information there for the connecting party to pick up. This make sures anonymousity all the times. That mac address you rEverSe EnGinEerInG might be the mac address of the last router before I can connect to your server. Routing will always dictate the path and the further a single player is from vendetta the more jumps it need to connect to your address. 

 

But ignore the long lecture,  I am waiting for you to do it since you said you already reverse engineer the whole thing. 

Re-read what I posted...

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No one blocks mac addresses, and there's a clear reason for that.

The best solution is to just have GS's actively monitor players, there is always one around who will do that.

if a player is suspected of dual logging to say, a BG or somewhere that's it prohibited, GS can investigate an issue a ban if necessary.
 

Of course it's important you inform people if they're going to make such complaints to say, luna or daddy, they do so politely and wait for the results of the investigation. My time in italy's discord showed me that, they're not listening to certain people because those people are rude to them, I wouldn't listen either.

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@Bash I read it

  • Mac address(self) manipulation is easy - Check, we can spoof it and is easy. 
  • The data that has been hashed and sent to identify from one another - This is a NO, sure everyone has a unique ID from one another but this is constantly changing and that MAC address isnt even the Physical address of the player, you run the risk of blocking an entire node network thinking it is the MAC the said player. 
  • Every information you see in your  client is the previous node/ server that the players network chose to connect to you,  it displays packet loss, time, location of the last jump , and the ISP of the player and it's current IP address(masked).
  • MAC address is Layer 2 for christ sake 🤣

@Alex_D this is what we have already you are again stating the obvious very redundant,  even so there are still people who get away with this stuffs, why? Because power of friendship. The only thing were discussing is removal of dual logging because it is the root of the problem. 

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20 hours ago, Beau said:

 

@Alex_D this is what we have already you are again stating the obvious very redundant,  even so there are still people who get away with this stuffs, why? Because power of friendship. The only thing were discussing is removal of dual logging because it is the root of the problem. 

The GS's are completely impartiant, and both MAC and IP blocks have been explained to be too difficult to implement fairly.

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Look, we all are aware this topic has been discussed before,  the fact that it has been brought up again is more than enough to tell everyone that no action is being done to improve the situation, this problem has been pushed aside for too long, even the one who started the thread is known for being a notorious quadruple logger.

Let say we cannot implement something hard coded and resort to manual labor by having GS catch exploiters,  let us set aside neutrality for a while.

Main key problem is the GS powers are very limited. 

  •  They cannot check the IP,  GS are too afraid to kick people even though it is an obvious alt of a single player because they can reason out, accounts are being shared. 
  • GS claimed they cannot kick opposing faction players,  for all we know, before most of the GS FC to RG, all of the remaining GS play on FK side,  when someone's alt tried to log in to opposing faction to feed flag, the GS cant do shit about it. 
  • GS are understaffed,  not enough GS that play during AK and NB regularly and enough GS to cover each timezone most of them works "behind the scene" becoming a reason for offendors to exploit even more, the process takes too long to report them and it isnt even guaranteed so no one bothers. 
  • Even if there is a clear injustice going on,  GS first response is always "post a ticket" instead of taking initiative to resolve the matter, which sucks.
  • GS reluctant to take actions because some idiot player tried to weaponize ticket system to dispose a staff member they dont like,  funny thing is they almost succeeded. 
  • Player guidelines about dual login is not elaborated, can be used to spam daily quest in 1 go,  or farming toons to rp cap fast,  farm toons for achievements completely flossed over because it isnt stated it is illegal. 

Hard to argue, if the management has a solution just do it please,  words are nothing without actions, this has been going on for so long it is becoming a culture. We can only fool ourselves,  we cannot remain neutral specially if friends are involved. Im a neutral player and I hate everyone equally. 

 

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