Daddy

Developer Update: Skills & New Cap

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I feel I should elaborate on that last sentence. Back in Aeria days, the doldrums of Babirion strangled to death the guild I was in, member by member. That wasn't just my observation; I was Captain in a Guild whose Guildmaster expressed despondency over it on a regular basis. I foresaw what was happening and begged him not to make me Guildmaster. He did that anyway when he ditched the game completely. Within 2 weeks of entering Nemesis, I quit without bothering to transfer leadership.

Scylla wasn't implemented then, but that would have been the reward and cooldown period I needed to keep me motivated in the game. Even that wouldn't have been necessary if Babarion wasn't so shit boring.

And you assholes had to create a daily mission to bring players back there. Good fucking job.

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15 hours ago, enkephalin07 said:

I feel I should elaborate on that last sentence. Back in Aeria days, the doldrums of Babirion strangled to death the guild I was in, member by member. That wasn't just my observation; I was Captain in a Guild whose Guildmaster expressed despondency over it on a regular basis. I foresaw what was happening and begged him not to make me Guildmaster. He did that anyway when he ditched the game completely. Within 2 weeks of entering Nemesis, I quit without bothering to transfer leadership.

Scylla wasn't implemented then, but that would have been the reward and cooldown period I needed to keep me motivated in the game. Even that wouldn't have been necessary if Babarion wasn't so shit boring.

And you assholes had to create a daily mission to bring players back there. Good fucking job.

Let me help clarify the reason of the free gear. It wasn't to replace the gear for that level only to help players through the start of that level and onto the next where they don't want to stick around and want to keep moving on. The gear was created so that you can still farm for a more permanent gear that would be better for you to pvp and pve in that level cap. The free gear allows for the pve, but if you faced somebody that got the gear set for that level cap and enhanced it to the max, it will be a tough competition for the player with the free gear to win against the player who went for farmed gear for that cap. The idea was to help players have an easier time making it through each level cap as well as an easier time farming for gear for that cap should they choose to stay there.

The daily quests was to give an extra exp bonus instead of farming the hell out of the mobs trying to gain exp. Though there are ways to help players gain experience faster than doing the normal mob farming at that cap and quests, they are there to help the players who want to take their time through each level and see progress over seeing no progress and just repeat. These dailies are something that the level 60+ cap has, through they are pretty redundant after you get to lvl 65 with 100% exp, they are pretty much useless along with the rewards since players usually skip the thought of using pve uni gears and just go straight to the pvp gear types. I mean why waste trying to enhance pve to +12 when you are going to want to switch over to the pvp gears anyway since the pvp gears have the exact same stats as the pve and have the added pvp bonus stats. So, they could do a better job with the dailies and rewards for the 60+ cap. 

The reason they created dailies for the higher level players to go back to the lower level maps was to help show that the server has people in it so that new players could see it's not dead.
 

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I wouldn't use the free base gears for that cap even for pve, it will get you killed fast and lose 0.5% exp for every time you get killed by an NPC (if you are not a tank class/build that is). The only base gears that are worth are the zeta ones, you don't get the whole gear, but the weapon, gloves, knee guards and shoes you get are identiacal to the normal unique zeta gear stats and if you compare them to the base kappa gear the zetas are still better. Never ever enhance base gears past +9 (you will use them later as naraks anyway), except for the base zeta , those are worth enhancing if you want a character for lvl 49 only.

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I’m gunna made ALOT BETTER free gear all the way up to max cap so the route to max is easier. Or if you just wana chill somewhere you will be pretty decent until you can max at that cap or create skirmishes with alts. 

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Free gears wont matter if people just gonna abuse guild house bug anyway. In order to fix things up you will need to patch that bug and I think most of the players will complain about it.

Bugs becomes a feature if devs doesnt fix it asap and it becomes a norm in the community.

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On 11/25/2020 at 3:10 AM, Beau said:

Free gears wont matter if people just gonna abuse guild house bug anyway. In order to fix things up you will need to patch that bug and I think most of the players will complain about it.

Bugs becomes a feature if devs doesnt fix it asap and it becomes a norm in the community.

Guild hall bug just like dual logging was better for the game more than it hurts the game if it even hurt the game in the first place. When they removed dual logging it didn't even solve the biggest issues with it only pissed off other players trying to power level their own character to a level at which they want it to play. These players already have the means to gear their characters at the level in which they want them, so ya free gears are useless to them and I can attest to that since I have several characters at different level caps that aren't using the free gears.

If you think that fixing this bug is going to fix the game, you are wrong because there are several players who don't want to go through months of questing and exp farming to level another character to end game. Besides that I am pretty sure you would have to have source code for that since guild hall isn't the only map one can power level a player in as it can be done in Suer and DV as well as Viledon and Amara.

 

Edited by Daddy
everyone stop fightin

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I feel the free gears have been fine for my WH and CB up to Ellis, where it becomes necessary and a better value to invest in kappa gear. The PvP in earlier maps is practically non-existent anyway. A first time player shouldn't sink their meager coins into maxing out their gear each tier, and the free sets make it easier to save money on optimizing for the late game, and for future alts.

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Okay I get that people often give criticism without giving constructive criticism. There is a big difference between "you did ___ well, but I think that if we tried ___ it may help" and "you need to change this." I am trying to be completely respectful here and give positive feedback along with constructive criticism. First though I must present why I feel that going back to Aeria level 54 skills is not a good idea.

As a frustrated team the idea of just undoing all of the hard work over negative feedback doesn't mean that there are not things correct. All passives were basically useless except medic move speed, SW conceal, and passive HP are what was and will remain useful if we change skills so dramatically. The changes to damage mastery, passive HP/SP, defense mastery, etc. have been nice. The passive damage was nerfed once, and it should probably stay the way it is now. 

Dots are going to be useless on PU and probably WH too. We won't have dot reduction debuffs, and we have ancient dot reduction jewels. Dots themselves were such low level on PU that they were not even worth putting points into. Now they are something we need to kill the most tanky DEs and CBs. The changes to dots were good. 

On the other hand, dots are too OP at times. While I even admit that, most medics are not using the ignis buff that gives dot reduction and plasma resistance, along with a cleanse and move speed buff. Maybe by removing the greek fire and plasma AOE skills as prerequisites would make it easier for medics to tap into that skill, before we go around nerfing PU even. Let's take a look all the classes and what they can do together. 

We need a way to stack more crit void. Maybe make adjustments to amara buffs for defensive pvp stats? The damage we have for mobs is also nice for this level cap. I plead with you all not to jump the gun and revert our skills all the way back. Medics will become all mighty as we will lack a lot of useful skills for killing them. Major Mech skills are so awesome I love them. 

As someone who has a geared level 65 SW and PU, I would much rather you come make adjustments to those classes than to reset everything. I still think it is a good idea to readjust medic requirements and benefits from ignis buff before nerfing PU dots. However, I strongly feel that the team has done well enough on the skills that we do not need a major adjustment. We have our random stats and jewels set up for this game.

ASB is dead, and VSB is becoming quite different, but that does not mean that changes are wrong. I think most of the changes that VSB has from ASB were put there for good reasons, and going backwards in a game that is starting to get some new players and active PVP is not a good idea. 

There is so much to cover as far as what, why, and how changes are to be made. I am not going to attempt to address each of them right here. This post has become long enough and I thank you for taking the time to read it. I again ask the development team to please not do this, and go ahead with changes by class. 

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from where we’re going it’s Gunn’s have to be a blend of both or it won’t work, Altho leaning more on the original versions calculations. Yes there are actually good improvements we will prob have to keep. Something do need buffs /nerfs/fixes from 54 version. I’ll just say it will be a lot easier to fix going back to original sb because the calculation that Luna and I have been trying to fix just have exponentially made it hard to balance. It is not 100% going back because of state of game and content we have. @Joelvtx dots are one of those things it will be stronger than 54s calcs but cheaper than now. Another thing to keep may be certain classes passives. 
 

not sure on anything yet tho. I am not able to start anything skill wise until Vivi can finish putting the old version in test. We are working on the rest of the patch tho. 

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and then there's me , who barely just got a hold of new skill system and forgot bout the old one , now it's coming back to hunt me , i'll just stay 65 and hug ogung tyvm ❤️xD

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Even when this takes more time, can we get Questlines to Complete? Like Merholt , Babiron and co have to recive maybe items we need/help for new Cap or Skill Points?  Kinda boring to level only for Points. :D

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On 11/29/2020 at 12:00 AM, Joelvtx said:

As a frustrated team the idea of just undoing all of the hard work over negative feedback doesn't mean that there are not things correct. All passives were basically useless except medic move speed, SW conceal, and passive HP are what was and will remain useful if we change skills so dramatically. The changes to damage mastery, passive HP/SP, defense mastery, etc. have been nice. The passive damage was nerfed once, and it should probably stay the way it is now. 

The idea of reverting back wasn't an easy one. It's something I've mulled over for months and was going to jump into doing ages ago before Daddy stepped up and said, "Give me a chance".  Do I really want to throw away all this work? Of course not. Skills are the worst things to modify and go through, and the thought of doing it again is already disheartening.

But as I've mentioned, this isn't a spur of the moment decision. Its one where we've had to make because we've finally felt like we can do nothing right with them any more. Its hard to mentally keep at it when the negative portion is louder then the positive.

Daddy has said though, we'll be tweaking them to fit in line with the new content, and pull some of the stuff we know did work out well for the classes.

Its not a full revert with the intentions of never touching it again - that certainly would be 10 steps backwards since content is out of reach for it.

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4 hours ago, Vivi said:

The idea of reverting back wasn't an easy one. It's something I've mulled over for months and was going to jump into doing ages ago before Daddy stepped up and said, "Give me a chance".  Do I really want to throw away all this work? Of course not. Skills are the worst things to modify and go through, and the thought of doing it again is already disheartening.

But as I've mentioned, this isn't a spur of the moment decision. Its one where we've had to make because we've finally felt like we can do nothing right with them any more. Its hard to mentally keep at it when the negative portion is louder then the positive.

Daddy has said though, we'll be tweaking them to fit in line with the new content, and pull some of the stuff we know did work out well for the classes.

Its not a full revert with the intentions of never touching it again - that certainly would be 10 steps backwards since content is out of reach for it.

@Vivi As you and the GS team would love us to all participate in the forums, this is only so much of the game's population. I personally only responded here because @KawaiiNyanNyan told me that this would be the best way to go. Many of us who are somewhat content are busy playing the game, working, or doing other things. We might not all respond on the forums. This is probably a significant portion of the players.

Some of us you will probably see on the forums when the game is down to type in the chat box. These changes were motivation enough for me to come voice my opinion(s). Let me highlight some things, because I have earned myself a negative reputation with plenty of players, and I feel I should emphasize that I am willing and trying to work together and be a more positive person. Please do not dismiss my ideas simply for being mine. I welcome all feedback and realize that we are going to need to meet in a middle ground. "I come in peace." 

 

- Vivi, you personally are doing great. You have taken a game that was dead and data for updates was destroyed. You took ASB, Dragona, and some of your own programmer artwork to make something unique. I do not like every single bit of your changes, but when I look at the positives, they far exceed the negative (which I will not bother listing, as we are focused on skill changes). Please do not be hard on yourself.

- The negative crowd is always the loudest, but not necessarily the majority. Most of us who are remotely happy with the game are online playing, and not on the forums. I just spent 10 minutes shouting in-game to urge people to come on the forums and reply. Experience tells me that of all the people online right now, only a couple are going to come on here and respond. They are going to wait and see what the team does, and either feel their voice does not matter, maybe they cannot type so quickly, or maybe they are focused on playing the game. 

- I have every reason to be biased on changes to punisher and shadow walker, as these are my main two characters. I am trying to put aside my biases so that you can have more accurate feedback, and so that I can better represent the population. This also means that you are not getting such polarizing opinions. If some arbitrary person who only plays shadow walker was against any nerfs on shadow walker, it would make sense. We can justify things in our heads to keep ourselves from becoming weaker. I encourage you to look for bias on my opinions on SW and PU. I am trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who does not play those classes, so I hope I can present to you feedback that is consistent. 

- It is without saying that a lot of players do not like me. That is their choice and I respect that. I may have earned it, as I am not perfect by any means. However, I want to work together with everyone so we can keep the game as fun as possible. If I have upset you or made you mad at me, I apologize to all who feel that way. I cannot expect you to suddenly like me. If you fall into this category, I ask you kindly to please still consider my suggestions with fairness. 

That was a lot to read, but I really feel a need to emphasize that we must all work together and try to keep in mind our own biases and to be as open minded as possible. I am going to go through a list of changes that I think might need immediate attention when we revert to the older skills. 

Punisher:

-Mighty impact and overkill had a range of 28 and 27m respectively at max level. Currently no stuns or direct target skills go past 25m range.

-Our current AOE's can actually hit people over 31 meters though, because of the range + the AOE diameter. As a person playing PU, if the range on those skills were to be lowered, it would definitely make casting these skills harder to do without getting stunned/pulled/killed in the process. People playing other classes may see this as a huge disadvantage, but at the same the AOE's are our weakest skills. I would highly suggest waiting before nerfing the range on those. 

- Stun cooldown for overkill will be 10 seconds again. This was a balance issue, and will need addressed at some point. You have it set to an 18 second cooldown at this point in time. 

- DOTS on PU are very powerful when they are all stacked. A great deal of the power from them comes from the -2000 dot reduction that is on penetration. Please consider our debuffs and not just the DOT skills, as we also have -750 dot reduction in major Ishtar. This is going to be very tricky to balance, as other classes benefit from our dot reduction debuffs. I would rather keep the mech skill and see the dot reduction on penetration go, than to see the DOTS themselves get nerfed. 

This was a change made by VSB, and was not in ASB. In ASB, we got to reduce our opponents crit? Yeah, not even their crit evasion (if I remember correctly). It would seem more beneficial to lower the DOT Reduction debuff on penetration, or remove entirely and keep on the Major ishtar. Otherwise I will be buffing WH's dots, and then people are going to cry that WH needs a nerf. The crit rate reduction did not seem to match the offensive nature of the debuff, and it may make it possible for PU to be a little too tanky still. However, I strongly advise against removing anything on PU without making adjustments for other classes. 

There is a fine line between making the game more balanced and stripping classes of things they really need to keep. 

-Major mech skills for PU, I do not see any reason to change, especially if arkana skills are going backwards. I would highly recommend keeping the major mech skills as they are, and giving us less debuff in arkana form in the future. 

- Slows. Now PU has a lot of backlash partially because of how some of us have used our skills. If I play my PU like a glass-cannnon (no cocoons, no passive HP, all points in damage), then my only defense is a good offense. I have 2/3 slows maxxed, the third slow is close enough to max. I can debuff someone on bike to 0 move speed. I also have DOTs all maxxed out. This is not a typical punisher build. In order to do this, I had to lose almost all defensive ability. 

Doing the dungeon, or avoiding pulls. These things are much harder if you try to build purely for damage. Other PU, who put all points in cocoons, passive HP, and stuns: they have the option of maxxing one skill tree, or putting partial points into slows and dots. On the other hand, they will not die so easy, but they have made a choice when building their PU's. My PU uses crit-atk jewels and randoms, so I can get extra damage. I can also be killed easily, and punishers with cocoons are probably going to do less damage from their skills than my PU would. 

Some things come down to how the player builds their character. I do not know that other players can fairly say that PU have too much slow, or can do everything at once. In reality our skill builds are all going to differ somewhat and different people play differently. If I had cocoons + my passive HP + passive atk + all dots and slows maxxed, that would be an issue. This is not the case, as in order to max our both slows and dots, you either give up your passive skill or cocoons in most cases. 

PU needs some damage nerf, but we need to look at how ALL of the classes play into it, and what could others skill into? For example, the medic skill that gives them cleanse, dot reduction, plasma resist, and even move speed is seldom used. Why do people complain about PU DOT and slow, and other debuffs, when a tool has been given to medics that benefits against PU more than anyone. Maybe medic ignis buff needs a boost in the future, or greek fire no longer a pre-requisite to get it? 

- Damage mastery does not need to be any stronger. I like using it, and am one of the few level 65 PU who actually puts points in it. Most people do not, but I do not think that it is broken. In fact, you guys took a nearly useless passive and made it into something useful, It is not something that is a huge deal breaker, and I do not see any point in changing. My damage without it in PVP is not boosted enough to justify nerfing it. 

- PU cocoons, eh. They are strong, but they also benefit allies, and both factions tend to have plenty of punishers. If anything needs changed, it would be nerfing evasion across the board, or making it a solo buff. At this point in the game, when ME + PU + SE/SW are together, a lot of evasion can be stacked. I do not think we should blame any particular class for that, but maybe lower evasion slightly across the board. I am not even voting for changes to evasion, but that is my "if we have to do something, here's what I think" answer. 

If you're still reading this, I thank you and appreciate it. I am going to touch on shadow walker quickly and stop there for now. I will get to other classes in future posts. 

Shadow Walker:

 

- As I stated above, EVA and Ch-EVA may be concerning issues. They are not necessarily issues with a lone SW versus a SE/PU with a Ch-ACC set of gear. I can hit most SW most of the time (up to the RNG and SW gear). Now, when a SW gets more Ch-EVA from medic, and then they get more evasion from PU cocoon and medics on top of that....it can be overwhelming. SW can easily become the deal breaker in PVP. This can be mass PVP or small scale. 

On the other hand, I have been in situations with medics who have ACC/Ch-ACC buff + SE in full chakra gear. It is hard to dodge stuns and finish off a medic in the backline with certain SE's, mainly buffed by medic. It is such a situational thing, as to whether or not you have a medic and what buffs the medic has. For 1v1 SW, I do not see any need to nerf their EVA/Ch-EVA, as my PU can stun a buffed SW if luck allows. This requires a full Ch-ACC set. It is a very delicate issue, because EVA and Ch-ACC are stats that heavily used by many playing other classes.

- Passive DMG for SW + void slash + fatal thrust is too much. When I am on SW, it has a much different feel than on ASB (I played SW from begging of ASB until the game closed). Some changes are nice, but some need a nerf. I am sorry to my fellow SW players, but it is true. 

There are a few main types of SW right now, but I am going to simplify it into 3 categories with 3 subcategories. 

Category 1 is SW no passive ATK. Category 2 is SW with some passive ATK. Category 3 is SW with full passive atk. 

Subcategories are simple: uses particle tree, does not use particle tree, and since I cannot draw a diagram here I will throw in SW who uses poison smoke. 

Category 1 and 3 makes only minor differences in PVP. It comes down to the SW's preference, however the passive damage is very nice, and I do not think it needs to be stronger than the damage mastery of the other classes. However, so many points are given up from arkana skills to do this, that the damage on these players is going to be from select skills and the passive will obviously boost mech damage. Category 2 players are probably getting the best of both worlds in all honesty.

Now we have particle tree or not, and poison smoke or no. Chances are that a SW who uses poison smoke is trying to utilize Ch-EVA, and then as far as particle versus physical damage SW, is simply a matter of preference. 

My point here is that SW's are kind of limited on how to build their SW for optimal damage right now. I do think removing the passive or reducing it to 75% of its current state would be a nice start. 

- Removing passive ATK from SW might not be good though, if we take away both of their debuffs. Void slash and shadow strike, in my opinion, should be combined as one buff again, but not at the full strength. Personally, my SW is not max geared like my PU. My SW can still kill medics with ease though, because passive damage and major debuffs, along with more stun and disable than any other class in the game. 

I think it is fair to make SW lose some of this damage, especially the debuff damage that they have. Keeping passive atk is fair, but it should not be the best passive DMG in the game. I do not think the passive DMG and debuffs should both be kept, unless they are both nerfed to balance things out. - My opinion is that a SW should be able to kill a medic, but it should require a nice solid combo and not just a few hits. SW should be more like a "mini DE" except with evasion and stuns. They should be a
able to change the outcome of a battle, or win a 1v1 still. I think that players should not be able to just come out of fade and kill anyone they please by using those debuffs + passive damage + maxxing out hard hitting skills. 

Thank you if you have made it this far into my post. I tried to offer numerous ideas and positive criticism, as well as multiple ways of looking at PU and SW, versus simply labeling them as too powerful. I am open to questions or criticism. Sorry for trying to cover so much information at once and making a long read.

 

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If this is the formula for spotting a SW then maybe look at some of the issues around this.

Spotting Distance (meters) = Detection - Concealment
If Spotting Distance is +50 you can always see that player.

SW's have to put 2pt in fade just to use the skill tree, those 2 pts give the SW +10 in concealment in fade only. The PU when they use conceal they get +15 in concealment with 2pts.

The WH and PU with detect gets a min of +20 detection and only need 1 skill pt to get it, the SE that gets +25 with 1pt, and ME gives everybody +23 including concealed SW's. With matching skill pt to skill pt and pt 2 skill pts for these players - WH +24, PU +25, SE +30, and ME gives everybody +24.

Those who invest with just 1 skill pt in detection will give players in a 1 to 1 pvp the PU and WH will have +10, ME +13, and SE +15. Do the math for those who match SWs skill pt to skill pt.

However in pvp it will give +43 to SWs, DEs, MEs, PUs, and CBs, with WHs getting +63, and SEs getting +88.

That would result in spotting distance for everybody to be +33m up to +77 and they only used 1skill pts to get it while the SW used 2 and renders fade utterly useless at that point spread. 

The SW lvl 55/50 mech is their saving grace of being able to fade to give the SW +40 concealment making everybody have +3 detection, while the WH gets +23, and SE is still up there at +48 in arkana and that is far exceeds +50 when they mech.

For lower levels the SW doesn't get the added mech concealment so the concealment to detection is broken at lower levels. Players say that the SW shouldn't be able to conceal themselves and have high attack, but I also feel that if players can see the SW they should also have lower attacks as well not maintain a 2 to 1 advantage in skill pt loss for SWs to them. Mind you the SW, CB, and DE all get the benefits of detection without losing any skill pts for atk or def. The SW can't invest in concealment to have it work in pvp, and from what I gather the game is large group PvP driving not 1 vs 1 and characters should be built around large group PvP not 1 vs 1.

Currently there are a few characters that are skilled for large group PvP while others are skilled for 1 vs 1. The SW has been skilled for 1 vs 1 pvp which is under skilled for certain aspect especially the concealment and you can just forget completely about the concealment in large group pvp all together. From what I gather, the SW is supposed to be an assassin class, but how can they be an assassin if in PvP they can't conceal themselves? I swear that if somebody says that it's not fair for the SW to be a hidden assassin then you might as well not force the SW to use fade or any concealment to use certain skills since they think it's not fair for us to be a hidden assassin. While the SW should be allowed to target and kill 1 player at a time with a conceal skill tree, we shouldn't be able to kill multiple players in a row. So, there should be a change in skill CDs for a SW to go in kill and leave before they can kill again.

 

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