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About the last Patch and Buffs/Nerfs/Balances ~


Pinkey
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Here we go talking about nerfs again:

We start with the BM and Exe nerf (which are singularly fair, but together they are immoral)

- 20% dmg dealt nerf in Exec: I think it would be fair if it were just that to be nerfed, but as we take nerf also in Zerk and BM (I will talk about next)I think it is totally unnecessary .. We killed part of PT's damage in a nerf that we brought ATKSPD in return .. Well, at least we will still be able to maintain the aggro of the bosses with the class because they managed to spoil the BM, so life goes on.

- Zerk nerf: I don't agree but I understand, I think it's fair.

-BM:
1 °: "fix" the extended KD combo was something thought out or was it by chance? If it really was a bug, I agree to be fixed but I expected to see the correction announced in the patch notes and not leave it aside and take us by surprise.

2nd: the nerf in% of damage from KPS was too high. Decreased 20% of BM damage, which, without the extended KD combo, will be a class to be excluded from the PVM going forward (it has been excluded from the PVP for a long time) due to the fact that there is no longer any need to debuff slash for BM and Pro Exe to hit since both lost 20% of the damage done. Will we return to Asura/strike meta again.

-Lastly, the stun of AE thunder instance wasn't supposed to cause immunity? It does not cause today. I think the intention to bring the MDPS classes to the PVM of the game is cool, but I don't believe that Killing the p-dps classes is the way to go, and unfortunately today the BM and the Exe died.
Exe will continue to be used, but more as a dealer but as a debuffer and the BM will disappear every day more.

The biggest problem with all of this is that it was right after the new sets in which many spent a lot of resources to make a heavy set of full dmg and will no longer be useful because absolutely all 3 classes of heavy damage that were used became debuffers.

I would like to receive an answer to the reasons, so that, if I don't agree, at least understand everyone's point of view.
This is my opinion, it does not mean that everyone thinks the same or that I am right, so I would like to receive feedback.

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  • VGN GM

Executioner is hardly going to miss 20% DMG with the rest of the DMG it has. It's a very fair nerf for a class that has been meta for a year and a half and potentially longer if people had actually tried it before. Yes the 20% Nerf is going to be felt but in reality its not going to make the class that much weaker in the long run. It already has double damage and a large assortment of multi-hits not to mention the amount of -Slash resistance available.

Beserker again lost 10% dmg and 10% P-ATK. As you said you understand but it's completely going to fill the job it does now and honestly your not going to feel that in PvE atleast.

Blade Master will feel the fix to the infinite KD bug because it was essencially dealing +50% DMG every attack while the infinite KD was in effect. Then combine that with the fact that BM was used way before people started using it for Infinite KD and the only difference between now and then is a small amount of skill damage again your overestimating the problem.

 

I will finish off by saying this.

None of the classes changed in the patch notes have suddenly become unplayable or even out of favour in the meta. This is just classic over exaggeration. Executioner out damages most classes already it's not suddenly grounded because 20% DMG Dealt was removed. Infact if in a party setup you might find the AoE P-ATK to all the other stacked PDPS you have might even increase overall DMG dealt for the party or atleast come out in a similar fashion. Yes BM is hurt by the infinate KD bug being fixed but like mentioned, it was used before the bug and it will be used after the bug was fixed.

How can people expect improvements to MDPS classes and other under-used classes when the second it take a bit off the top of the top tier classes the world impoads and people say things such as "It's like he literally destroys what he touches". People like that need to get a grip. You can't just keep buffing classes otherwise you're going to completely ruin the PvP of the game. Balance changes swing both ways. It's funny tho... The same people who sit there and complain about me making changes to classes in World chat are the same people who I saw complaining on Monday about how MDPS classes are useless and weak.
 

Sorry I derailed your topic a bit but thought I would use the opporunity to call out all the wanna be know it alls who are quick to judge a change at face value but wont say anything directly to me about it and will openly critisize when I don't touch things for a while. This is not directed at @Pinkey.

 

As always I'm glad you where pleasent and simply asked for clarity rather than come here and be rude. Thanks!

 

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I've been GS'ing (Vendeta and Shiyatsu) for a long time and i know how you feel when ppl are complaning about you and your job so i'm sorry if i offended you, Jordan. Even here in vgn worked for a little time with you being GS, so i know you better than the ordinary players and thats why i'll never say something like "he destroys what he touchs", im really glad for all the job you did till now. Maybe my limited english's automatic changing some words that i dont know how to xpress for things like "not playable anymore" the point is that i cant express myself 100% of what im thinking cause my english's a little limited.
I'll not complain about changes (specially when are you buffing mdps) all i want to know when i made the topic was your reasons for the nerfs. As i said before, i understand every single nerf, my point was thinking in a whole party nerf cause in the actual meta Exe, BM and Zerk are mandatory. Probly this nerf's changing Bm for Asuras and coming back to the strike meta, but kust like you said Exe and Zerk are still usefull even with lower damage. Try to rethink about the KP in BM, i lost too many dmg. Im not even talking about the infinite KD cause i knew that was a bug (probly the skill was overlapping because a skill causes the efect and another one was procing the status? not sure lul) i just asked cause i didnt see any mention to the fix in the patch notes.

I'm always waiting for changes so i cant complain when they're coming.


Didnt asked about BA cause i literally doesnt care but a friend's crying too much, so: Can you give me your vision why the BA needs a nerf?

Thanks for making it clearly and i hope you didnt understand me wrong. Thanks ♥


 
 
 
 
 
 
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  • VGN GM

Just to reiterate what I said incase you took it the wrong way the complaining I did at the post was aimed more at some of the things I've seen in peer chat but thought would be relevant to bring up here.

Well BA again is just a class that is kinda too good (PvE wise) and shaving a bit off it would help bring classes that can output similar amounts of damage / purpose up without having to buff them. It was also bugged on how it was dealing double damage around 90% of the time. So clearing up the bug was only natural which maybe is a bit overkill tweaking it slightly down at the same time but we'll see on that. I have reports of people doing just fine on the class after the changes. Unlike the other classes however I will admit this will be the most felt change of the patch in terms of nerfs.

Honestly though it's just a bit draining to be working on this in my free time and have people who think they're game developers call me out when I'm not around just to act big in peer chat. Hence the earlier rant so apologies.

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I'll take this topic to talk a bit about my main class only , i'll not touch others or talk about cause i'm not that good with those and maybe that's the problem :3

Battlefield Poet got a nerf on Melody Of Mana, which was NEEDED :3, ty for that cause it annoy me proc all time, it made me feel i was good but was the class thing.

About changes:

 

Battlefield Poet

Flame Vibrato
Cooldown has been removed.
(Thank You for that was really good change, on PvE made me feel better not use racial or star of the show for 1-2 mobs when stacking)

 

Dark Metal
Resistance reduction increased from 5 pts to 7 pts.
Class Talent Dark Music now stacks 5 times.
Class Talent Dark Music reduced from 15% DMG to 3% DMG.
(Good change at all, making spend more points on build was really knowledged from ur part)

Melody of Mana
Triple Hit Rate reduced from 50% to 10%.
(As i said, needed 50% too much)

Wave of Thunder
Triple Hit rate increased to 100% from 20%.
Class Talent Flash increased from 3% to 5%.
Class Talent Flash now stacks 5 times instead of 3 times.
(IDK about this is kinda ok for me since we got nerf on melody of mana but KP was good change since i had to use better my points)
 

Death Metal (Awaken Flame Vibrato)
Grants all party members within 40 meters "Death Metal" status for 15 seconds. While "Death Metal" is active P-ATK & M-ATK +10% and will be immune to stuns.
(This one i'll talk a bit more)

Its a insane change really good, AFB (Awaken Flame Vibrato) was really useless , just good for quicly stack, even with that good point skill had less duration and i needed to use normal flame vibrato once to keep it up, skill is super usefull on PvP, on 1x1 especially cause BP give stun as 100% for 3 sec and this can be decisive.

Would like to ask for another change, make Wave Of Nature 100% sleep since is more defensive or escape skill than ofensive, and works nice as 50% but would be super nice if get it at 100%. (or not idk, it saves me sometimes)


About BP changes in general i can't say its bad cause was a SUPER GOOD buff, but i would like to see more people playing as BP :c.

Ty for all work and wish we can have nice updates for some other classes too (Elegand dacer could have 2 dances again )*infecttado whisper in the shadow*

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maybe we should down on this and nerf more outliers along with boss max hp so ppl can acutally build variety teams, like a game with 61 classes should have always been.

I like the nerfs, even tho my current gear no longer allows me to kill 4T in less than 6 mins with exe 11 bosses then zerk petra.

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2 hours ago, SmolShibe said:

nerf more outliers along with boss max hp so ppl can acutally build variety teams

There were many people complaining to me in peer chat about how my topic (Early game as a MDPS main) "ruined" their lives because of Executioner/BM nerfs.

In fact, there are like 3 or 4 classes hitting 4M+, while others (Full DPS role!) can't reach 1M, even with setup. The game is balanced around the 4M-hitting classes, so it means whatever you use outside of this 4M is just going to feel garbage. Nerfing the outliers along with the bosses, will give us a more balanced PVE, without ruining the experience of PVPing.

One might argue that these classes will be doomed in PVP, but considering that people already avoid using Exec/BM on PVP, I doubt it will change anything. 

With this single phrase, you resumed the same viewpoint that I have. A scenario where Slash parties are equally strong compared to Fire, Dark, Strike or other party setups with decent combinations of classes, allowing a game with 40 awaken classes to have some kind of variety.

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  • VGN GM
On 2/12/2021 at 2:56 AM, SmolShibe said:

maybe we should down on this and nerf more outliers along with boss max hp so ppl can acutally build variety teams, like a game with 61 classes should have always been.

I like the nerfs, even tho my current gear no longer allows me to kill 4T in less than 6 mins with exe 11 bosses then zerk petra.

Although I actually agree with you. I'd probably have to go much harder on the nerfs if I was to take this route. And well I mean, I've only been online for a handful of minutes since the changes where applied and the amount of bitch fitting in peer/world chat about bug fixes (not even nerfs) is just the reason why we can't have nice things I guess.

Edit: Just to add aswell I remember seeing people beat HoO bosses in seconds before the nerfs and 115 sets where released. Hence why I said I'd probebly need to nerf the classes much more.

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8 hours ago, Jordan said:

I've only been online for a handful of minutes since the changes where applied and the amount of bitch fitting in peer/world chat about bug fixes

oh I am unfortunately well aware, we are humans and generally dont adapt to changes well at first, its normal.
But ye, speaking of bugs, DE still cant remove dragon summons, its definitely something you can put aside, but just to let u know, the issue is still there.

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10 hours ago, warbeast667 said:

tbh if we are discussing the pve uselessness of magic classes lets also be discussing on how any melee pdps in pvp skills that aren't a gap closer or aoe can't hit a moving target even if it's someone with -80% ms

One issue doesn't necessarily forbids the care about the others. Berserker, Executioner, Blade Master, Asura, pretty much all the PDPS classes do have a Gap Closer, but the "issue" on these classes is the kiting from targets. We have massive AoE classes on PDPS too, they just aren't as efficient as Mecha / New Arch-Elementalist, but that doesn't mean you can't go PDPS. There were players using Master Fencer/Bard/Blade Acrobat for AoE combos and it did work. Strike is still good on PVP, specially after the AOJ buffs (Yes, the class was heavily buffed towards DPS in PVP but nobody seems to know about it yet). Ranged classes are PDPS too, and a Pierce focused comp can do PVP really well. Best cappers are PDPS, and capping has a fundamental role in PVP.

Overall, comparing the usage of PDPS/MDPS, you'd have MDPS classes being used in 2 bosses and in ~30min everyday (During TW) + the GVG times at weekends, against PDPS being used pretty much 100% of the time in PVE. With the new Arch Elementalist, we now have the option to use it for farming, so it did give us a good, refreshing air.

Imagine yourself being a Mage player in every other MMORPG. Then you reach VGN, have to build 3+ PDPS classes and play it for 2~3 months straight, just so you can take part in content, in order to gear your desired class that you're going to use for 30~40min per day. Why would you play a game like this, if there are so many others where you can just play your desired class from day 1?

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3 hours ago, Reikan said:

One issue doesn't necessarily forbids the care about the others. Berserker, Executioner, Blade Master, Asura, pretty much all the PDPS classes do have a Gap Closer, but the "issue" on these classes is the kiting from targets. We have massive AoE classes on PDPS too, they just aren't as efficient as Mecha / New Arch-Elementalist, but that doesn't mean you can't go PDPS. There were players using Master Fencer/Bard/Blade Acrobat for AoE combos and it did work. Strike is still good on PVP, specially after the AOJ buffs (Yes, the class was heavily buffed towards DPS in PVP but nobody seems to know about it yet). Ranged classes are PDPS too, and a Pierce focused comp can do PVP really well. Best cappers are PDPS, and capping has a fundamental role in PVP.

Overall, comparing the usage of PDPS/MDPS, you'd have MDPS classes being used in 2 bosses and in ~30min everyday (During TW) + the GVG times at weekends, against PDPS being used pretty much 100% of the time in PVE. With the new Arch Elementalist, we now have the option to use it for farming, so it did give us a good, refreshing air.

Imagine yourself being a Mage player in every other MMORPG. Then you reach VGN, have to build 3+ PDPS classes and play it for 2~3 months straight, just so you can take part in content, in order to gear your desired class that you're going to use for 30~40min per day. Why would you play a game like this, if there are so many others where you can just play your desired class from day 1?

the gap closers are buggy af which has a good chance of you slowly running at them, and a good portion of pdps aoe's that aren't from the ranged classes usually being casted at the player's feet which ends up with the melee person getting swatted away before they get in range. tbh aoj as a class doesn't really fit into a team comp, but rather just a counter for healers or another source of buff eating with the aura. while yes ranged classes are pdps, but the classes that got nerfed outside of zerker can't really do much since most of the class stuff can't affect xtals (for obvious reasons). which raises the question why didn't the assassin get nerfed at all since they are a need in both pve and pvp. (if it does get nerfed change -def from 5% per a stack to 4%)

now with the pve aspect i actually love what they did with ae, and with the nerf/ new bug to ba is actually better to run dungeon farming in thunder stance with thunderstorm's dmg amp and ms boost along with a permanent magic burst. i'm also loving the chance stun being it's own skill which is comical to disrupt cast whenever it's off cd. while we are on the subject on neat classes that are useless 80% of time we need to rework them instead of nerfing their counterparts. tbh i would love to play lw, druid outside of drive by monke, or beast tamer but what use do they provide? 

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Just going to throw my two cents into here as well.

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

We have massive AoE classes on PDPS too, they just aren't as efficient as Mecha / New Arch-Elementalist, but that doesn't mean you can't go PDPS.

Is this not the same issue that M-DPS has in PvE? They aren't as efficient as a P-DPS party in most cases, but it doesn't mean you can't go M-DPS if that's what you really want to do.

 

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

There were players using Master Fencer/Bard/Blade Acrobat for AoE combos and it did work.

Once upon a time, sure. That meta is long gone though. Bard is seen occasionally, but mainly as a debuffer for M-DPS.

 

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

Strike is still good on PVP, specially after the AOJ buffs (Yes, the class was heavily buffed towards DPS in PVP but nobody seems to know about it yet).

On paper, this seems like it could work in PvP. In practice though, it isn't anywhere near what you think it is. I've tried it very recently with both the 115 and awakened hammer, and with both Dark Ninja and Hydra sets. As gear as AoJ can be. AoJ suffers from the problem of ramping damage though, just like Executioner. Both of them are looking to get stacks of their +DMG Dealt skill, and there just isn't enough time for that in PvP. Difference is, Executioner can wear a shield while doing it, and AoJ can't. If Executioner isn't viable in PvP, then AoJ certainly won't be relevant unless changed. You try to take on one person, and you won't have any success because your damage doesn't start out as great. You try to take on multiple people to stack faster, and you melt. I love AoJ as a class and wish it was in a better place, but you're giving it far too much credit in PvP (or even PvE for that matter, as we've tried it with a strike comp after the Exe/BM nerfs).

 

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

Ranged classes are PDPS too, and a Pierce focused comp can do PVP really well. Best cappers are PDPS, and capping has a fundamental role in PVP.

Ranged classes can work yes, but not even half as good as an MDPS-focused comp. MDPS cappers aren't far behind (if at all), I've outcapped many people/guilds on GM, and see many others doing it too. And it generally feels much safer than an Assassin for example, both because of range and because it can fight players much better.

 

6 hours ago, Reikan said:

Then you reach VGN, have to build 3+ PDPS classes and play it for 2~3 months straight, just so you can take part in content, in order to gear your desired class that you're going to use for 30~40min per day. Why would you play a game like this, if there are so many others where you can just play your desired class from day 1?

How much someone uses a class is completely up to them. As you said, AE can run Palace just fine now. I typically solo mutants on either Rifleteer or DB (DB is usually faster). For most content, other classes will be better sure, but there's nothing in this game you can't clear on an MDPS if you really want to.

 

3 hours ago, warbeast667 said:

which raises the question why didn't the assassin get nerfed at all since they are a need in both pve and pvp.

Assassin's damage in PvE doesn't compare to like a BM or Exe for example, so I don't really think it's a problem tbh. I don't think it's a need in PvP either, as it's close enough to other cappers (like Anni) to not really be 100% above or below them. It also has the issue of not being able to fight nearly as well (mainly because of melee issues/kiting) as an Annihilator or a GM, so it has it's own flaws. 

 

3 hours ago, warbeast667 said:

tbh i would love to play lw, druid outside of drive by monke, or beast tamer but what use do they provide? 

The team I usually do Abyss with uses LW as a healer in some fights. 😮 It works just fine!

 

All in all, outside of a few classes, I don't really mind the balance of them too much. I've made my suggestions in the past to try and make those classes more fun to play, but overall I think things aren't that bad. Most classes have a use somewhere for something, and if you really like a certain type of class, there's nothing stopping you from using it in just about everything the game has to offer. It's just my opinion, but I don't particularly like PvE being taken in such a competitive way, especially when most of the players are more casual and none of this really applies to them. There's no competitive aspect to PvE, no Haven of Oblivion speedrun category or anything, no reason to try to do things as fast as another party or comp.

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3 hours ago, warbeast667 said:

w8 lw in some abyss pts like phoenix prison, and if so does hs prevent feralwing sleep?

Phoenix wouldn't work unless you had the new 115 set and just avoided using Battle Hymn for healing. We've used it in Stygian Core, Stygian Peak and Fox Sanctuary though and it was just fine.

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13 hours ago, Rin said:

1) Is this not the same issue that M-DPS has in PvE? They aren't as efficient as a P-DPS party in most cases, but it doesn't mean you can't go M-DPS if that's what you really want to do.

2) Once upon a time, sure. That meta is long gone though. Bard is seen occasionally, but mainly as a debuffer for M-DPS.

3) On paper, this seems like it could work in PvP. In practice though, it isn't anywhere near what you think it is. I've tried it very recently with both the 115 and awakened hammer, and with both Dark Ninja and Hydra sets. As gear as AoJ can be. AoJ suffers from the problem of ramping damage though, just like Executioner. Both of them are looking to get stacks of their +DMG Dealt skill, and there just isn't enough time for that in PvP. Difference is, Executioner can wear a shield while doing it, and AoJ can't. If Executioner isn't viable in PvP, then AoJ certainly won't be relevant unless changed. You try to take on one person, and you won't have any success because your damage doesn't start out as great. You try to take on multiple people to stack faster, and you melt. I love AoJ as a class and wish it was in a better place, but you're giving it far too much credit in PvP (or even PvE for that matter, as we've tried it with a strike comp after the Exe/BM nerfs).

4) Ranged classes can work yes, but not even half as good as an MDPS-focused comp. MDPS cappers aren't far behind (if at all), I've outcapped many people/guilds on GM, and see many others doing it too. And it generally feels much safer than an Assassin for example, both because of range and because it can fight players much better.

5) How much someone uses a class is completely up to them. As you said, AE can run Palace just fine now. I typically solo mutants on either Rifleteer or DB (DB is usually faster). For most content, other classes will be better sure, but there's nothing in this game you can't clear on an MDPS if you really want to.

6) All in all, outside of a few classes, I don't really mind the balance of them too much. I've made my suggestions in the past to try and make those classes more fun to play, but overall I think things aren't that bad. Most classes have a use somewhere for something, and if you really like a certain type of class, there's nothing stopping you from using it in just about everything the game has to offer. It's just my opinion, but I don't particularly like PvE being taken in such a competitive way, especially when most of the players are more casual and none of this really applies to them. There's no competitive aspect to PvE, no Haven of Oblivion speedrun category or anything, no reason to try to do things as fast as another party or comp.

1 - The thing is, PVE is the most part of the content. When you can't use something on PVP, you can just keep going through PVE while you gear your PVP classes, but the other way around can't work. Why would someone gear twice if they want to do PVE, and for what reason would they do it if the result is less efficient than the first gearing?

2 - I'll touch this "Meta" thing later on my comments.

3 - PVP has its own mechanics and the "ramping DMG" isn't that much of a problem when you can stack up in the duration of a Reaver's Knockdown. The "issue" with PVP meta is the player mindset that "whatever the top guild uses is the most efficient tactic available" but that isn't true. I've had my guild running into TWs with very different comps compared to such "meta" and being able to outsmart 20+ players from top guilds just because of how good the setup/positioning was.

4 - GM is far inferior to Assassin. Literally, at least 50% less efficient than the Assassin in speedrunning objectives. Other PDPS like Asura can still out-DPS the GM, unless the Assassin/Asura is really undergeared compared to the GM.

5 - Agree, but check #6.

6 - Agree, but most of the community does not. A new player isn't going to do Abyss with his newly geared (with "best" gear he could) -insert magic class here- unless it's for the specific MDPS boss, because the huge majority of the community wants to speedrun stuff, and they are simply incapable of taking 2 extra minutes to fill a role with a "less efficient" class in their team. That's how it is, and if a new player just can't do the late game with their main set of classes, they will just drop the game because there are so many other options of MMORPGs where they can play the class they want in late content, competitive way. Nobody is going to "find this marvelous game" which has 2010 technology, and go through 2 months of boring gameplay with classes they don't enjoy playing, to start gearing a class, that they will eventually use in a 30min-PVP everyday.

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2 minutes ago, Reikan said:

1- ... and for what reason would they do it if the result is less efficient than the first gearing?

Because they want to? If I want to only play Rakshasa, then I'll only play Rakshasa. I might not get accepted into most things sure, but I'll find people who will.

 

3 minutes ago, Reikan said:

3 - PVP has its own mechanics and the "ramping DMG" isn't that much of a problem when you can stack up in the duration of a Reaver's Knockdown.

I assume this is implying you get full stacks somehow on a 15-meter aoe from a perfect Reaver KD, and even then, that AoJ is going to fall extremely fast simply due to being a melee with no shield. It just doesn't work, and it's not practical. There's a reason it isn't played, and that isn't just because people are sheep.

 

5 minutes ago, Reikan said:

4 - GM is far inferior to Assassin. Literally, at least 50% less efficient than the Assassin in speedrunning objectives. Other PDPS like Asura can still out-DPS the GM, unless the Assassin/Asura is really undergeared compared to the GM.

Again, I've done just fine on mine. Top capped many crystals, and will continue to do so. Versus some of the top Annis/Assassins/Asuras. You're vastly underestimating the class.

 

5 minutes ago, Reikan said:

6 - Agree, but most of the community does not. A new player isn't going to do Abyss with his newly geared (with "best" gear he could) -insert magic class here-...

Goes back to point 1. If a party doesn't accept you because you only want to play one type of class, then find people that will. There are plenty of more casual players who don't nearly care as much what someone plays. The exception to this is something like Willow One-Eye who is immune to Slash/Strike, don't play something that isn't going to do any damage lol.

I'm not here to have a debate with you though. I came to give my opinion on what the post was about, as well as correct a few incorrect things I saw being said, and I have.

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On 2/13/2021 at 10:11 PM, Reikan said:

Imagine yourself being a Mage player in every other MMORPG. Then you reach VGN, have to build 3+ PDPS classes and play it for 2~3 months straight, just so you can take part in content, in order to gear your desired class that you're going to use for 30~40min per day. Why would you play a game like this, if there are so many others where you can just play your desired class from day 1?

Imagine coming back after years and not participating in the current end-game PvE, let alone PvP and trying to make the game M-DPS ONLY. Honestly, I'm sick of listening to your BS about the current metas for PvP and PvE when you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Just spare us all and duck off your high horse, go experience things before you try to get them nerfed and turn our server into a anti-PDPS server because of your retarded ideals. If you didn't play and you didn't stay to watch each meta change, and you have 0 experience or knowledge then stop talking now AND GET SOME FIRST.
Many of us have been loyal AF to this server through many meta changes, through many class nerfs regardless of the nerf actually being needed or not.

Why are you so butthurt that M-DPS aren't top dog in PvE? Is PvP not enough for you? All we have in PvP is capper classes, they don't win the party vs party fights. Abyss and Haven give us PvE use for M-DPS whether you agree with it or not, not everyone will go and use the cheese method. Some of us don't want to be M-DPS mains like you. 🙃

You rant and you rave all over peer chat, honestly it's the most annoying thing to have to see in a GAME we're meant to play for FUN or to RELAX. If this game isn't fun for you the way it is, then maybe you shouldn't be playing it. 

And by all means, voice your opinions, no one is going to stop you. Just don't force your ideals onto all of us cause not everyone agrees with it. And quite frankly, I think these nerfs were some of the most unnecessary ones the game has ever received.
 

 

On 2/11/2021 at 3:39 PM, Jordan said:

None of the classes changed in the patch notes have suddenly become unplayable or even out of favour in the meta. This is just classic over exaggeration. Executioner out damages most classes already it's not suddenly grounded because 20% DMG Dealt was removed. Infact if in a party setup you might find the AoE P-ATK to all the other stacked PDPS you have might even increase overall DMG dealt for the party or atleast come out in a similar fashion. Yes BM is hurt by the infinate KD bug being fixed but like mentioned, it was used before the bug and it will be used after the bug was fixed.

Wrong, it's no longer top DPS(Tank) in our end-game content anymore. The 20% SELF DMG buff it had was quite helpful for using it as a tank for bosses like Sakuya.
Soloing 4T now takes x3 the time it used to, good game, solo players are getting hurt through this and berserker's nerf. 🤷‍♀️

Not to mention BM's KD is now broken and KDs every so often for 2s or 3s or if you get lucky a max of 4s. I have tried this many times and have brought someone else with to count with me to be sure of the times. It'd be nice if you can find a better way to fix this "infinite" KD bug that not everyone knew about or bothered to abuse.

I just wish that more people's opinions mattered in this game.

More than just Siroco play this server. Some of us haven't quit for the other classic server or Aeria that contest vendetta's livelihood. Is it so wrong to hope for our voices to matter too? instead of just getting ignored when we make good suggestions.

What about when we said we didn't want Haven or Abyss? Doesn't mean poop, huh..
This isn't the content we wanted, doing achievements is a demotivating thing as it is and now it's even worse with Haven and Abyss. People that are here miss the old trials, we miss getting to play a variety of weaker classes for FUN because of being able to chill and relax while progressing in old fashioned trials.

I'll apologize for being a handful or an annoyance to @Jordan, but I won't apologize for speaking my mind. :/ 
If I get banned for saying BS and duck off then so be it, good luck. I'll be done now.

I'll just leave this here and say this isn't the only person's opinion you should be listening to.
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6 hours ago, Nanami said:

Wrong, it's no longer top DPS(Tank) in our end-game content anymore. The 20% SELF DMG buff it had was quite helpful for using it as a tank for bosses like Sakuya.
Soloing 4T now takes x3 the time it used to, good game, solo players are getting hurt through this and berserker's nerf. 🤷‍♀️

Not to mention BM's KD is now broken and KDs every so often for 2s or 3s or if you get lucky a max of 4s. I have tried this many times and have brought someone else with to count with me to be sure of the times. It'd be nice if you can find a better way to fix this "infinite" KD bug that not everyone knew about or bothered to abuse.

I just wish that more people's opinions mattered in this game.

More than just Siroco play this server. Some of us haven't quit for the other classic server or Aeria that contest vendetta's livelihood. Is it so wrong to hope for our voices to matter too? instead of just getting ignored when we make good suggestions.

What about when we said we didn't want Haven or Abyss? Doesn't mean poop, huh..
This isn't the content we wanted, doing achievements is a demotivating thing as it is and now it's even worse with Haven and Abyss. People that are here miss the old trials, we miss getting to play a variety of weaker classes for FUN because of being able to chill and relax while progressing in old fashioned trials.

I'll apologize for being a handful or an annoyance to @Jordan, but I won't apologize for speaking my mind. :/ 
If I get banned for saying BS and duck off then so be it, good luck. I'll be done now.

I'll just leave this here and say this isn't the only person's opinion you should be listening to.
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Not sure how any of these changes could amount to taking 3 times longer on bosses. Nore was 4 Trials ever designed to be solo content. So thats just complete over-exaggeration if I've ever seen it. I have not halfed the output damage of any class (Except the BA fix). So yeh not sure where you're getting your math from.

BM KD being broken is a bug obviously not being able to get the 4 seconds KD off is a bug so how about you give me a chance to fix it first rather than shooting your mouth off?

Every single change made in the patch was ultimately decided by me. I consulted people on the Arch-Elementalist changes but when I nerfed Executioner and Blade Master it was because I felt they needed it and not the opinion of anyone else. And during the testing of these nerfs I spoke with players I know you respect the opinion of and they agreed the nerfs where fine. Sirocco who you are finger pointing had no idea of these changes until the patch went live. The only input he had on the patch was regarding Arch-Elementalist and the design aspect of the class.

Now considering you're derailing the topic about class changes to about dungeons I wont bother to really respond about this. However, I've noted exactly why I haven't done content like this in a previous content and whether you agree or not thats on you.

--

I will just say this and whether you agree or not is up to you.

If theres 3-4 classes that are constantly played is it wrong to shave a bit off the top. Beserker isn't going to miss 10% DMG Dealt. Executioner isn't going to miss 20% DMG Dealt. You can argue that BM is going to miss +50% DMG from its permenant KD but people where playing this class before that was even discovered. So you can't honestly argue that the class is now suddenly unplayable. It's absurd.

As for MDPS. You all cry and laugh at how bad MDPS in PvE is. You all sit there in world meme'ing about how MDPS has to be force into the game to be played. Then the second you make any change to kinda balance them out without ruining PvP it's like i've just killed someone.

But tbh I know you will probebly just ignore this. If someone has the opinion of 20% DMG being removed from one of the top classes in the game is going to make the class unplayable then I'm affraid your not going to listen to me when I say it doesn't. I have sources I trust that play all these classes who have barely even felt any of the changes and I know they are people who call me out on changes they don't feel are fair.

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To be honest i've felt a bit on party modes, DNG like abyss and HoO got 1-2 min more which is nothing for me , but too much for many.
i'm afraid to say anything here since this will generate huge problem ingame but lets go:

Sirocco in these 3-4 years always said M-DPS wasn't a choice for PvE but is just way to think, since i love to do stuff with M-DPS (didn't liked before but now i don't care about the time i spend on it so whatever)

Nerfing P-dps isn't a bad idea FOR ME, since those have too much resources to get dmg and M-DPS are slower and weaker vs bosses.

I understand Nanami, cause i thought like her before, i just ignored the idea ''only sirocco has voice'' since read last topic about mdps  3-4 times again to understand how this could become a P-DPS nerf discussion, and had nothing really specific about it.

Jordan you will have this feedback always u nerf something that ''90% of comunity does'' like P-DPS party only, its normal, and i just don't do that cause its ur decision and even if we wanted , it make sence, so u will not turn it back.
KD of BM in special was a big problem since i did HoO with peer party and we got 3 Karen, those even spawned her tigers any time after BP. (3 karen was 12 min run, before when i was playing each karen took 7-8 minutes)

What Rin said here:

13 hours ago, Rin said:

I might not get accepted into most things sure, but I'll find people who will.

If i suggest to my friends today, lets do GoP with M-DPS only they will say yes, why? cause doesn't matter they want to have fun with it, we did as normal classes why not M-DPS only.
Its right u need to find ur party and play with ur classes, you aren't locked into any , just change and go.
Obviously what some bosses do, like Molten Core which is EXCLUSIVE M-DPS, or DS bosses which is EXCLUSIVE P-DPS, its game content, change a bit, is just 20 minutes, we playing game with 61 classes,20 awaken, being used like 15? why build 1 set only? why not try something new?

I agree with nerfs, i agree with M-DPS buffs (Not cause BP got buffed, i loved new Arch and buffs on HB), but i feel people should try something new.
 

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I found funny how I'm being considered an absolute evil for voicing out an opinion that I had for 3+ years (as Infect just pointed out), and that opinion being "considered" by Jordan since some classes weren't being used. 

I didn't knew any nerfs were being done. Jordan asked me: "If you want a MDPS to be able to farm and do stuff solo, don't you think we could make the Arch-Elementalist more like a traditional mage?". I said "Yes, of course" and most of the class stuff was done by him.

I'm not part of the VGN staff, so I don't have any influence on Jordan's decisions. The thing is, most of the community voice is heard from forums, not from peer chat. I'm sincere when I said I still didn't have the opportunity to play the endgame PVE, and I voiced my opinion on MDPS classes because now I don't have 12h+ to spend in the game to do what I used to do: Gear up 3 or 4 classes before the classes I want to play just because the meta is bad for MDPS PVE daily routine (I didn't even ask it to be "top dog" on endgame dungeons such as HoO/Abyss!). I just wanted to log in, do Palaces on a cool looking mage, and walk around doing small stuff solo, helping new players as I always did and have fun in my favourite role. 

Thanks for the new Arch-Elementalist, it made me very happy and now i'm always motivated to log-in and do my tasks.

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On 2/15/2021 at 10:36 PM, Reikan said:

I found funny how I'm being considered an absolute evil for voicing out an opinion that I had for 3+ years (as Infect just pointed out), and that opinion being "considered" by Jordan since some classes weren't being used. 

Nope, this isn't it at all. It's just that you complain and rant, and rave all the time about M-DPS everywhere that it is to the point you put down any PDPS. Your argument was that PDPS are much stronger than MDPS and MDPS are lackluster in PvE thus resulting in no one using MDPS anymore in PvE and Jordan nerfing PDPS (some of which were completely unnecessary in many peoples opinions). Most of which I feel was based off meta theories, not actual fact or reality of how the metas truly are. 

Some people just don't have the time to go and re-gear every class you say, but in gearing 1 HA class you essentially gear 3-4 easily and get many things done, I don't see how this is at all hard to do (I have geared a character on another account and finished awaken 110 armors in a few days if nothing less than a few hours depending on trial parties/drop RNGs (thanks to being able to stack many awaken books for extra stones and fossils). 
 

On 2/15/2021 at 8:02 AM, Jordan said:

As for MDPS. You all cry and laugh at how bad MDPS in PvE is. You all sit there in world meme'ing about how MDPS has to be force into the game to be played. Then the second you make any change to kinda balance them out without ruining PvP it's like i've just killed someone.

I rarely speak in world chat and I never cried or complained about MDPS ever. I frankly do not enjoy MDPS at all, I am a healer main at heart and will always be, even with my main healer being nerfed to half of what it used to  be. My 2nd main is Assassin even after it's nerfs and minor rebuff. :/ I just wish that things were the way they used to be on this server. Sorry again for my annoyances and disturbances, hope next patch goes better for you.

I will not respond anymore in order to keep this forum post on track.

Overall my thoughts of the last patch were unnecessary nerfs.
Executioner: I think other things should have been done for exe's nerf, like the DMG dealt buff being decreased to 5-10% instead of handicapping it with nothing and even having to share it's new P-ATK buff with the entire party. It is no longer the tank we used for Sakuya fights where the tank NEEDs to hold aggro or it messes up and can result in wipes due to the KD/Stun spam the boss gives on the current target between shockwaves and not being able to do damage cause of foxes/shockwave (meaning healer can easily get aggro)
BA: This class has only been used as a farmer for the longest time and the holy skill almost never used, no one ever gems for it and if anyone uses it, it is likely just to survive the fatal wound inside of palace or the huge dot in mine.
Berserker: I think the nerfs to this class was 100% unnecessary, berserker is generally the lowest tier PDPS in the current meta and is used as a de-buffer. The only thing that truly makes it OP is the amount of regen ability it has, the DMG output it gives is next to nothing to worry about and yet it still got nerfed.
BM: This class I will admit has been OP for quite a while and sure some people were abusing an infinite KD (need I remind, not everyone was doing this and still suffer for it). The overall DMG loss in KP is kind of sad, but the saddest part is the KD (which you said you will fix?). I still think that this could have been handled better, DMG KP loss could've been 4% in every KP talent because of the overall DMG loss being 10% from each skill.

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7 hours ago, Nanami said:

BA: This class has only been used as a farmer for the longest time and the holy skill almost never used, no one ever gems for it and if anyone uses it, it is likely just to survive the fatal wound inside of palace or the huge dot in mine.
Berserker: I think the nerfs to this class was 100% unnecessary, berserker is generally the lowest tier PDPS in the current meta and is used as a de-buffer. The only thing that truly makes it OP is the amount of regen ability it has, the DMG output it gives is next to nothing to worry about and yet it still got nerfed.

thats mostly my response too, I can get behind the dmg nerfs on exe/BM becuz they were simply too strong, but I honestly did not understand why healing on BA, which is highly niche and only good for specific situations, nerfed of all things. Its a holy skill so u either need to fort the holy wep or farm the holy skill to put on 100+ weps, doesnt seem like a lot of reward for the work/resources used. 

I honestly thought Zerk wud get nerfed by changing Massacre Roar to 1% max hp (how it survives pvp) and toning lifesteal down to 25%, not chipping the dmg away, since lowering dmg doesnt stop it from 2% heal every single target hit by mindweaver in pvp, it just makes pve take longer.

Im pretty happy about everything else, its just those 2 things that irk me.

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I dont really care in gearing up a class that i wont to stay in the actual meta, as a MMORPG we know that meta's the most important thing for competitive pvm/pvp no matter where. My point with the MDPS was cause we had no reason to play with a magical class before HOO/DS and now with Abyss in PvM.
But i still doesnt agree with Exe nerfs (even if i understand) cus keeping the aggro are way harder today ad it's problematic in some dungeons like Sakuya as our brotha said up there.

I'm still waiting for a Time Manipulator buff to make the class competitive again, i've been playing with Tm for years and theres no space for me in any pt lmao

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