Losque Posted May 18, 2023 Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 Hello, The following is a list of changes that I think would contribute to an overall more fun and rewarding PvP experience for everyone who participates. I would like to get concurrence from the community on these proposed changes so we may be able to see them get implemented. Throughout the post, I will refer to “Battlefield and Arena PvP”, by this I mean Territory War, Battlegrounds, Guild Elimination, Guild Arena, Elysian Island, and 3v3 Arena. The removal of output variance in healing and damage skills.If you are unaware, most skills we use have a certain amount of random values for the damage or healing quantity they can output. My proposed change, for example, for a skill that has a chance to do between 1.00x and 1.20x damage, we would make it just do 1.00x damage every time. This would be MONUMENTAL in allowing every player in the game to test out builds, find out what does more/what does less and further their understanding of what gears they should use to their heart’s content. This also serves to get rid of the random factor to the damage and healing we do in PvP to contribute to a fairer competitive experience. There are very few skills in the game currently that function this way already, if you would like to check for yourself see Time Manipulator’s Galactic Concoction/Time Freeze and Luminary’s Light Split. The removal of smoke bombs and character augments (such as poison powder, baby powder, teddy bear shampoo, etc.) being effective in Battlefield and Arena PvP.Smoke bombs unfortunately invalidate the unique characteristics of classes and races that have entire skills dedicated towards just going invisible or getting out of combat. With smoke bombs removed, utility and value will be restored once again to those classes that have lost theirs. Mid-fight revives will have to be planned more thoroughly and carefully and humans will once again have a useful racial skill. The various character augments make many characters too small to be effectively seen or targeted during Battlefield PvP when standing behind or around other players. If complete removal of the character augments might be too much of a change (such as in the case of GKs who need it to see their party members), the alternative is to make the effects of the character augments only be client-sided. In other words, when you use a character augment such as poison powder, only you will see the effects of it and everyone else will see you as normal. Nerf Antor’s and the 75 Awaken Pike Antor’s is supposed to have a 6 second mundane effect as per the item description, but the effect lasts for 8 seconds. In addition, the effect can proc again once it has already activated, leading to the potential mundane of a player for 20 to 30 seconds (which does happen). Ideally, the effect time would be correct to 6 seconds and it would be made so that it can not proc again if already activated. The Level 75 awaken pike has an unfortunate place in the current meta of the Battlefield PvP of awaken server. With the reasonably tanky Blood Knight, parties can now get hit by large AoEs that have no cooldown. The effect of the pike mundanes targets for 3 seconds but does NOT give mundane immunity to the affected person after the duration of the effect. This results in players getting mundaned over and over at random intervals throughout the course of every encounter or Party vs Party fight. My suggestion is to make it so that mundane immunity is granted to players after they recover from the debuff of the pike. Removal of RNG CC Certificates (Yellow DK 4% Mundane Cert, Green Engineer 4% Stun Cert, Yellow Templar 4% Stun Cert)The random effects of these certificates, in my opinion, do not contribute towards a fair PvP experience for most players. Neither the attacker nor the attacked have any control over their activations, however the result of their activation are potentially catastrophic for any class receiving their effects. To remove this bit of uncontrollable randomness from the situation will allow players to have more control and agency over what happens and what they are able to achieve during PvP encounters. Nerf certain POD buff effects and increase stat value requirements at Level 130.At the current patch of the game, players have AMPLE resources available to them to reach 100% in any stat they are interested in. In this current standing, POD sort of serves as an overkill, and players can neglect portions of their build and have the gaps filled in with POD buffs. There are so many accessories, trophies, sets, gems, enchants and capes that are renderred practically useless due to the amount of free stats we’re given. With some changes, we can create a more diverse and creative game with unique builds that gives value to many underutilized or ignored items. If you don’t know what I mean by “stat value requirements”, every stat that is percentage based has a value required to hit a specific percentage. So for example, you need around 5100-5200~ in value of mcrit rate to reach 100% at level 130. The changes I propose are as follows: Change 10% Block POD buff to 5% Block Change 10% Parry POD buff to 5% Parry Change 10% Cast Speed POD buff to 5% Cast Speed Change 10% Attack Speed POD buff to 5% Attack speed Change 10% Double Hit POD buff effect to 3% Double Hit Raise stat value requirement for 100% Accuracy from around 5200~ to around 6100 Raise stat value requirement for 100% Evasion from around 5100~ to around 6100~ Raise stat value requirement for 100% Cast and Attack speed (not affected by flat values) from around 5300~ to around 5900 or 6000~ Raise stat value requirement for 100% M.CRIT and P.CRIT rate from around 5100~ to around 6200/6300 Raise stat value requirement for 55% Defense from 45k~ to 60k~ Raise stat value requirement for 70% Parry by a reasonable margin (not able to accurately test parry values not affected by flat percentages) Raise stat value requirement for 50% Block by a reasonable margin (not able to accurately test block values not affected by flat percentages) Nerf the necklace sleep enchant “Nightmare”Nerf the sleep enchant proc effect to now inflict a sleep that is cancelled when attacked. Now, the sleep enchant will still allow for the guaranteed interrupt, however will no longer be another RNG CC that is potentially catastrophic to the one inflicted. This will allow for counterplay as the one attacked will be able to measure their response to getting hit by this according to their reaction time. [Unknown]Elimination of the Party vs Party fight ProlongationThis is probably the most impactful suggestion, yet I myself have not yet found an effective way to implement the solution based on everything available to use in the current meta. The idea is to avoid party fights that just drag on and on and on with players not dying due to the amount of damage reduction available as things tend to get out of hand when 4 or more supports are in the same party. Of course, we wouldn’t want to make it so that people just get one-shot due to players becoming too squishy, but at the same time I don’t think anyone wants to fight the same party at the same crystal for 12 minutes straight (Stardust vs Garden GvG 02/19/2023). There are quite a few ways this can be approached, and I will list what I have considered so far while not sure which way would be the best: -Nerfs to the sources of damage reduction such as Pet prays, class skills, territory war buffs and certificates. -P-Heal / G-Heal change or nerfs while in Battlefield PvP (similar to arena but not as drastic) -Changes to HP increases in Battlefield PvP Please feel free to share alternative approaches that will fix this current problem as I'm not yet aware of a 1 size fits all solution to the problem. -- I would like to see what the overall impression is for these changes as I genuinely believe that all if not most of these would be highly beneficial to the community. Let me know what you guys think. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VGN GM Jordan Posted May 18, 2023 VGN GM Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 Just to kinda let people know where I stand on these suggestions: 1. I don't think it would change much so if people want it, then why not? 2. I think this would make things more fair overall since nobody is happy with the tinyest of dots running up and attacking and not being able to click them. Smoke bomb's are a different issue since I think they're slightly better balanced since x4 dmg when hit but still probebly better without them idk? 3. Agree with Antor, not really sure about the Pike is necessary tho. 4. I personally didn't like these types of certificates however, back when I played nobody used them until the original inquisitor stun one came out. And by that point there was other problems imo. 5. I kinda think its fair to nerf pod, i would also say I think Move SPD should be added to the nerf list too with the other flat stat buffs. As for point increases I think they too are fair suggestions (I was planning to one day do this for ACC). 6. I think this is a bug anyway, but im impartial. 7. I think this would be a very "tread" lightly sort of situation because one wrong step and it becomes one shot fest. I would like to know opinions from all the players who are interested in this topic as this is not a list of changes to just go with, without hearing other peoples thoughts. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark20 Posted May 18, 2023 Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 Everything suggestions than u made its a kind of poop Dont need to nerf, anything or something its part of pvp All " SUGGESTIONS" than u made are only for benefit yourself or playstyle, why u dont suggest to limit the mov spd on battlefield pvp like at 50% on everyone? , why u want to nerf stuff than made others players keep doing or effort theirselve like posiouns powder , its part of tryharding, dont got your point of these all changes, maybe am ok with Antor / Pike awak 75 cus can be annoyed asf. but reduction ? reduce attack power? no magic power? nerf block parry . What a guy, lmfao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losque Posted May 18, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 5 minutes ago, Mark20 said: Everything suggestions than u made its a kind of poop Dont need to nerf, anything or something its part of pvp All " SUGGESTIONS" than u made are only for benefit yourself or playstyle, why u dont suggest to limit the mov spd on battlefield pvp like at 50% on everyone? , why u want to nerf stuff than made others players keep doing or effort theirselve like posiouns powder , its part of tryharding, dont got your point of these all changes, maybe am ok with Antor / Pike awak 75 cus can be annoyed asf. but reduction ? reduce attack power? no magic power? nerf block parry . What a guy, lmfao I understand and acknowledge your disagreements as you are entitled, however, for other readers, by no means are these changes meant to "benefit" myself or my playstyle. As some people know I mainly use AE in the game, with the build that I use all of the POD and stat requirement changes would definitely make me weaker. I myself utilize CC Certificates when playing against other players due to their utility, so once they are gone I will no longer have them available to use. My own healers use smoke bombs to sneak revive members of my party when needed so we'll no longer have that option. I also use the nightmare sleep enchant when I play as well. I don't think it is always a good idea to not change something simply because that is the way it was, but rather based on the effectiveness of the change. I hoped that this conversation wouldn't have to become toxic. You seem to have some interesting ideas of what we could do to help the state of PvP (like the move speed thing) and you can suggest them yourself in this very thread, but you need to understand that your ideas are not my own. It would be a shame to ruin a potentially productive conversation over some grudge you might have. If you have any ideas of what else we can do, feel free to share, you won't be met with a toxic attitude from myself or anyone from my guild. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xSuigetsuux Posted May 18, 2023 Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 Hello, very interesting post overall Losque, these are my thoughts. 1. Personally find this very interesting, myself have spent copious amount of time trying to test anything and it's simply not possible. Every single build hits the same based of rng basically. You simply end up in multihit builds on every single class. We don't even have builds for each class at this point, just stack multihits because rng is too random. 2. Agreed, should you play on laptop and halfkins use poisonous powder, they simply are invisible. Only people abusing it would disagree, this has been an issue over the years. Especially when playing single target classes like Conjurer, it's pretty much spam Tab until you get lucky with the target or walk melee into them which is not a smart move. 14 minutes ago, Jordan said: Smoke bomb's are a different issue since I think they're slightly better balanced since x4 dmg when hit but still probebly better without them idk? The dmg on hit augmentation is not really a thing on permanent 200% move speed, targets simply reposition 200m away from you while you can do nothing about it. Let alone if your class does not have aoe. 3. Any not correctly working CC should be fixed, agreed on both. Getting mundane'd for 18s does not contribute to a healthy pvp. 4. While I don't entirely agree with its removal, CC certs going through immunities does not make much sense. For example, stun cert going through BP Holy Skill. Removes the purpose of the class to be fair. 5. Pod could be nerfed since we got plenty of stats, however stat values requirements should consider pve stats as well. I think such changes may cause players to pve with <50% crit rate on some classes. Which is not great considering 90% of playerbase if pve only. 6. Doesn't really affect pvp in my opinion since everyone uses it, not a specific weapon bug like pike. 7. I agree on dmg reduction nerfing, sitting for 12mins at one crystal makes you not wanna log back to pvp cos it's insanely boring. However they need to be pvp exclusive, nothing affecting pve like I said before. Therefore certs or pet prays to put an example shouldn't be where to apply these changes. Furthermore I'd add some sets / weapons balancing before any of this, Dark Ninja gives 15% patk 5% dmg dealt, while Revelation gives 25% matk 15% dmg dealt; or Sickleshot having 10% triple hit, while Staff gives procs no class truly benefits from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infecttado Posted May 18, 2023 Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 1- Idk it seems will be good for few classes and bad for others. 2-yes remove all of cosmetic stuff and smoke bomb/engineer potion, i'm hater from engineer potion since it become a ''annihilator battle'' at end of TW, GvG give HUGE start if you have 200 speed + nice dmg you can cap 1 crystal in few seconds and get on next one before even enemy team could get running directly. 3-Antor/AWK pike but huge more impact is caused by disarm trophy like crime, sometimes i'm just running around and get it on procs, can't be removed and reactivate if is already up + doesn't have immunity to this kind of dmg control, yes its bad ranged doesn't get affected but others does. 4-Certificates is fine, like Stun ones make Assassin playable vs players giving minimal chance of kill it with full combo. (mundane is ok, since there's immunity, removing it would benefy more solo players than party fight) 5-PoD buff is nice, everyone almost cap all status with those buffs. 6-Sleep/kd/stun enchant is 1% chance still hard to get it i don't think it would affect much. 7-DMG recived/taken would be bad thing since i play solo and i can wipe a capper because he doesn't have decent dmg reduction or good healing, usually you need move 1 healer or 1 extra capper to the fight, so it would nerf a bit how much few classes are needed. 1 hour ago, Jordan said: Smoke bomb's are a different issue since I think they're slightly better balanced since x4 dmg when hit I'm from south america and even using exitlag or windscribe i still have high ping , enough to make unfair smoke bombs, we usually get around 150-180% move speed full buffs (cappers/anti cappers) and player get time/distance to use it and be unsable to get hits, also smoke bombs are huge counter from bombs on gvg, healer can just go invi and revive everyone without any consequence. In general its looks good but we know it will be benefical to few classes like Battlefield Poet/AE/CA/Mecha. Healers in general whatever Jordan do they will always give everything to party diference will be on how healers play. I prefer jordan's change to classes like he did to lethal. Since AE till S+ class for pvp i don't think would have other classes or metas for now until future changes, Mecha left pvp to fire ae, other dps left for Lightning AE. (I would say mecha is dead on pvp but haven't tried with new gun so i'll keep as just ''left'') Understandable Mark's point, but PvP ingame has been dead for long time and we do need few changes, TA was good idea but as all pve content it dies too fast. New pvp is best one but we don't have enough player or guild to try it. Now question to jordan related to specific pvp : There's any plan/idea for 1x1 comeback? because 3x3 is dead since we don't have ''team queue'' it makes hard to get people who are flex on classes, and want to play with what's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rin Posted May 18, 2023 Report Share Posted May 18, 2023 5 hours ago, Losque said: The removal of output variance in healing and damage skills. Personally I like damage variance, it exists in just about every game. I feel like in a way it adds flavor to the game and keeps it from just being a stale numbers system that you can calculate. Agreed that having these changed to consistent numbers would make testing much easier though. If it would be possible to make this map-specific and implement it just into Sakura Island or something, I think that would be a very useful function and serve as the "training dummy" that has been requested so many times. 5 hours ago, Losque said: The removal of smoke bombs and character augments (such as poison powder, baby powder, teddy bear shampoo, etc.) being effective in Battlefield and Arena PvP. Strongly agree, I have been in favor of removing smoke bombs in PvP for years. They are still used outside of PvP, so it doesn't kill the item or anything. Character-augmenting items like poison powders, etc. would be better as client-side, toggleable effects I think. Playing a class like GK and being on an obnoxiously large mount can be annoying. 5 hours ago, Losque said: Nerf Antor’s and the 75 Awaken Pike Agree that immunity should be applied normally. Additionally, these should function similar to stuns, where if it's overlapped once immunity is immediately given during the second CC. 5 hours ago, Losque said: Removal of RNG CC Certificates (Yellow DK 4% Mundane Cert, Green Engineer 4% Stun Cert, Yellow Templar 4% Stun Cert) Disagree. Despite being uncontrollable RNG, some classes rely on these (Assassin was mentioned) to be able to fight. Without CC certificates, Assassin exists just as a capper that ends up outclassed by Annihilator. 5 hours ago, Losque said: Nerf certain POD buff effects and increase stat value requirements at Level 130. Stat value requirement changes would have a huge impact on PvE, which as previously said is an extremely vast majority of the game. If there was a way to make this exclusive to PvP then I might think differently but I don't think this is a good idea currently (could also change when we get Lv125 armor sets). POD nerfs I don't really agree with either. 5 hours ago, Losque said: Nerf the necklace sleep enchant “Nightmare” Impartial to this, but the result would be everyone switching to Stun/KD enchants depending on what CC their class doesn't have. 5 hours ago, Losque said: [Prospective]Damage Received/Taken Buff Nerfs This is an extremely fine line and probably really hard to approach. I think that damage reduction particularly in a party vs. party setting is too strong. Because of that, the first step I think should be taken is support class-based sources of damage reduction. However this would have to be baby steps, probably tested over the course of multiple weeks with real PvP. Another approach to this could be looking at the PvP Damage Taken -X% stats on the 115 Abyss armor sets as well. Very good post though, well thought-out suggestions with reasons and solutions for everything. I hope more can contribute as well 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Posted May 19, 2023 Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 9 hours ago, Losque said: The removal of output variance in healing and damage skills. I don't personally have any issues with the way it is currently. 9 hours ago, Losque said: The removal of smoke bombs and character augments (such as poison powder, baby powder, teddy bear shampoo, etc.) being effective in Battlefield and Arena PvP. As a GK main for many years, I don't agree with removing them at all. I would prefer if these HAVE to be adjusted they be client side only so that I will not have to kill everyone I am healing because of some horse wings flapping in my face. Let's not forget how big Annihilator Siege mode is on bears. 😜 9 hours ago, Losque said: Nerf Antor’s and the 75 Awaken Pike I'm in favor of this one, the trophy is annoying. I can't say I've felt the effects of the pike as much as most of my PvP experiences were spent as a capper recently. 9 hours ago, Losque said: Removal of RNG CC Certificates (Yellow DK 4% Mundane Cert, Green Engineer 4% Stun Cert, Yellow Templar 4% Stun Cert) As an assassin main for my capping class, I will respectfully disagree with this. It's truly just too unfair to remove the only form of CC that a class without CC uses, it will leave them utterly defenseless imo. The only way I'd agree to this is if Asassin holy skill were to become a fear/stun/kd or an immobilize that works like the frog melee racial. 9 hours ago, Losque said: Nerf certain POD buff effects and increase stat value requirements at Level 130. I'm against this change, as a human healer in battle medic m-crit rate is already very low (around 54% base with adju buff) and reaches cap usually with full potions and pod and couple buffs. Some people's builds are built entirely around PoD buffs and I think there's nothing wrong with them. If people are too lazy/unmotivated to do PoD for PvP that's on them, the buffs were increased to be 4 hours long as a way to motivate people to PvP more and compensate with podding issues on the weekend. The only change I would suggest on this is if people still have issues with podding is to make it like NCTW and make it free in every PvP mode, but even then I don't think that is necessary at all cause it comes down to laziness. And quite frankly the removal of pod buffs is the lesser of the "two" I believe that Elemental's guild statue is more overpowered than PoD buffs. 🤷♀️ 9 hours ago, Losque said: [Prospective]Damage Received/Taken Buff Nerfs I'm not a fan of this change either considering we still get 1 shot even with all of that, yes I understand that is suggested to go along with the nerf of randomized DMG values but I just don't agree with either change. 9 hours ago, Losque said: Nerf the necklace sleep enchant “Nightmare” Doesn't really matter to me, nor do I see a reason to change it because I don't care for it. Those are all my thoughts on these changes, I am quite content overall with the game and how it's been so I guess I'm a bit of a party pooper ☹️ Sorry! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losque Posted May 19, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2023 7 hours ago, Rin said: Disagree. Despite being uncontrollable RNG, some classes rely on these (Assassin was mentioned) to be able to fight. Without CC certificates, Assassin exists just as a capper that ends up outclassed by Annihilator. 2 hours ago, Nanami said: As an assassin main for my capping class, I will respectfully disagree with this. It's truly just too unfair to remove the only form of CC that a class without CC uses, it will leave them utterly defenseless imo. The only way I'd agree to this is if Asassin holy skill were to become a fear/stun/kd or an immobilize that works like the frog melee racial. I was shooting pretty high with this one, admittedly. Would it make a difference if the suggestion was to instead only remove the green stun cert and yellow mundane cert? If not remove, then reduce to a 1% chance? I'm not too married to this suggestion in particular so disagreements were expected. I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Posted May 20, 2023 Report Share Posted May 20, 2023 22 hours ago, Losque said: I was shooting pretty high with this one, admittedly. Would it make a difference if the suggestion was to instead only remove the green stun cert and yellow mundane cert? If not remove, then reduce to a 1% chance? I'm not too married to this suggestion in particular so disagreements were expected. I'm sure there is a compromise somewhere, though. Ideally I would like to keep 2/3 of them, I'd be alright with 1% chance if all 3 still exist I suppose. Ultimately I'd prefer to keep at least the two yellow or get a useful holy skill which semi-supports part of your wishes to change things up. I would lose a res or dmg gem for the cc. 🙏 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hiersen Posted May 20, 2023 Report Share Posted May 20, 2023 On 5/18/2023 at 6:07 PM, Losque said: [Prospective]Damage Received/Taken Buff Nerfs Disagree, that's one of the reason I don't do pvp anymore, besides the fact that i got insulted for no reasons after sharing my opinion. When a holy sage with awakened dragon of tranquility fully stacked (-20% damage taken) the aura (dmg taken -15%) resistance cap, potions, etc. get two shot by a random AE passing by, are you sure it's really the damage reduction the issue? EVEN if magnus triggered twice & all triple/double hit effect applied, that's way too much Then again. I'm not doing pvp anymore, so I just shoot that while looking on the forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losque Posted May 20, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2023 3 hours ago, hiersen said: Disagree, that's one of the reason I don't do pvp anymore, besides the fact that i got insulted for no reasons after sharing my opinion. When a holy sage with awakened dragon of tranquility fully stacked (-20% damage taken) the aura (dmg taken -15%) resistance cap, potions, etc. get two shot by a random AE passing by, are you sure it's really the damage reduction the issue? EVEN if magnus triggered twice & all triple/double hit effect applied, that's way too much Then again. I'm not doing pvp anymore, so I just shoot that while looking on the forum Thanks for the response. The change you're quoting is not intended to fix the problem that you are describing in your reply. I might have just chosen my words poorly in my original post, but I am not asking to get all of those damage changes I listed implemented, rather, those are the options I have considered in service to fixing the issue where party vs party fights end up taking forever when all of the healers/supports are up and doing their job. I can understand how dying to random really high burst damage that you and the person hitting you does not have control over can be frustrating. Changes to damage variation and double hit POD buffs could help in this area. I wanted to avoid asking for modifications to specific double/triple item effects for this change but that might be the next place to look. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shinntxz Posted May 23, 2023 Report Share Posted May 23, 2023 I think the first step to take on its on clases/certificates. there is no much variation on what to use on each class, cause if you dont follow the path that most people take your class will be useless. Also certificates would be a good idea to rework, they are all based on pre awaken classes and they do not provide any boost to awaken classes. i believe most of players use certificates cause well.. why not? I also believe that there is a lot of KP's tree that can be adjusted in order to let you choose which path you want to take on, for example an assasin. right now is burst or being bursted (on that class) so for example ytou can give assasin players an option like ok you can pick the oneshoot build but in order to put kps on burst things, u gonna lack another stats, and viceversa if you pick long term fight lacking another stats so you can "balance" ur class. This using this class as an example. Talking about certificates, you can try to make them work different, maybe only 3 needed for the p-atk buff iinstead of 4. I would also like to recomend to remove all the p crit rate certs/kps since we already over cap crit rate/m-crit rate on most of the classes (except for healers that they need them still) I dont think that disabling smoke bombs and transformation items will help to improve the pvp state for the same thigns that have been said already. Antor and pike been like this for years and now that its been used suggest a change/adjustment which i dont believe its fair for people who has been testing, trying to change the meta game etc. Maybe it is not the trend to add this suggestion but would be also nice to give something new to Couples, could be even potions, or atleas make the buff last longer, could be also like pod buff. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Posted May 24, 2023 Report Share Posted May 24, 2023 6 hours ago, shinntxz said: I also believe that there is a lot of KP's tree that can be adjusted in order to let you choose which path you want to take on, for example an assasin. right now is burst or being bursted (on that class) so for example ytou can give assasin players an option like ok you can pick the oneshoot build but in order to put kps on burst things, u gonna lack another stats, and viceversa if you pick long term fight lacking another stats so you can "balance" ur class. This using this class as an example. This idea makes me think of BnS class talents, they have 1 skill that can be transformed into 2 or 3 different types of skills based off the type of "tree" you choose. So for an example let's say "Firebomb" is the base skill, we can upgrade this into something like "Purgatory Bombardment" or "Purgatory Rain" via KP, this will be completely different skills learned and gained off KP chosen. Doing something like this would make KP trees a lot bigger as I don't think there's enough space for it currently, it would require a lot of time to revamp it all but it would indeed be a nice way to build differently especially if we could mix and match skills from different "trees" and basically take a branch off of that tree to make our own unique builds. It would also be a good way to use a lot of the KP we've gained with the custom cap raises and be more efficient for reducing over capped stats like @Losquehad wanted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted May 25, 2023 Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 1 - Agreed. 2 - Agreed. 3 - Agreed, and i'd go even further: Just remove these trophies entirely. We have classes with CC, if people want that specific CC they should just play that class. I hate how hard it is to balance classes because of how many of these items are around, it's holding back too much potential buffs on classes that aren't popular. 4 - Completely agree. Also, change the -Malice certs into something useful on PVE, like PVE MoveSPD or something <Specific to PVE> (since Malice is PVE only) 5 - POD to me is a very tricky question - We have a racial craft market based around that, also people only invest time doing POD due to PVP being a very competitive scenario. People who do PVE with POD only do that because they are in a hurry, not because it's needed. Nerfing POD would force PVE players out of it, and due to lower impact on status after nerfs, it might hurt PVP aswell. I hate doing POD for PVP, and even though I'd enjoy it being "free on PVP maps" like NCTW in the old times, I can respect the racial craft market, therefore agreeing it shouldn't be touched. About the Block POD: Asura can lower your Block to -60% with skills and procs. Don't forget it's also a countermeasure for PVP players. 5 - I can only agree on raising stat values for EVA and ACC, all other stats are tricky to get around and I don't think they should be touched. Try yourself to raise your status on healers and you'll see how bad it is. 6 - Agreed. 7 - NO, PLEASE NO! Man, what went through your mind when suggesting this? Why are people allowed to stack +DMG Dealt indefinitely and not -DMG Taken? If party X is having trouble killing party Y, then it's party X job to look for countermeasures. Are you in a GvG? you can bomb entire party Y. It's a TW issue? Is your team set up to stack debuffs and buffs, or are you just running 8 Arch-Elementalists in hope of huge AoEs? Current PVP is lacking players, and the only teams that are actually trying something are having issues gearing up and holding back some of the old players. Is it their fault? Yes, they should gear up faster and better before hopping in PVP. But again, if a group of new players has no countermeasure to lower the DMG in order to actually play PVP, even on subpar results, having to stack 5+ healers just to survive, not being able to properly cap or fight back (due to low DMG / Not enough CC classes)? They would just leave the game entirely because 2 Arch-Elementalists wiped them out. Point 7 is a free ticket to server doom. If it ever reaches live setup, i'm quite sure it would be catastrophical for the server. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losque Posted May 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 On 5/23/2023 at 4:52 PM, shinntxz said: I think the first step to take on its on clases/certificates. there is no much variation on what to use on each class, cause if you dont follow the path that most people take your class will be useless. Also certificates would be a good idea to rework, they are all based on pre awaken classes and they do not provide any boost to awaken classes. i believe most of players use certificates cause well.. why not? I also believe that there is a lot of KP's tree that can be adjusted in order to let you choose which path you want to take on, for example an assasin. right now is burst or being bursted (on that class) so for example ytou can give assasin players an option like ok you can pick the oneshoot build but in order to put kps on burst things, u gonna lack another stats, and viceversa if you pick long term fight lacking another stats so you can "balance" ur class. This using this class as an example. Talking about certificates, you can try to make them work different, maybe only 3 needed for the p-atk buff iinstead of 4. Thanks for your input. I think it's a interesting idea to look at certificates and KPs. Maybe something like awaken class certificate combinations being introduced would help add some cool things you can do with your build as well. Changing KPs alone though I think would have a hard time fixing the problem you're describing, but I agree with the idea. Depending on the class, currently we don't really sacrifice much by putting most KPs in damage skills and I think most people will continue to do this because it's easy to cap the stats you need anyway with POD etc. Unless the alternative to damage skills was something very strong like damage reduction or very useful added effects to skills I think we'll just end up with people ignoring most KPs for damage/resistance because the stats that most of the KPs give we'll be able to get. Good suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losque Posted May 25, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 25, 2023 18 minutes ago, Reikan said: 1 - Agreed. 2 - Agreed. 3 - Agreed, and i'd go even further: Just remove these trophies entirely. We have classes with CC, if people want that specific CC they should just play that class. I hate how hard it is to balance classes because of how many of these items are around, it's holding back too much potential buffs on classes that aren't popular. 4 - Completely agree. Also, change the -Malice certs into something useful on PVE, like PVE MoveSPD or something <Specific to PVE> (since Malice is PVE only) 5 - POD to me is a very tricky question - We have a racial craft market based around that, also people only invest time doing POD due to PVP being a very competitive scenario. People who do PVE with POD only do that because they are in a hurry, not because it's needed. Nerfing POD would force PVE players out of it, and due to lower impact on status after nerfs, it might hurt PVP aswell. I hate doing POD for PVP, and even though I'd enjoy it being "free on PVP maps" like NCTW in the old times, I can respect the racial craft market, therefore agreeing it shouldn't be touched. About the Block POD: Asura can lower your Block to -60% with skills and procs. Don't forget it's also a countermeasure for PVP players. 5 - I can only agree on raising stat values for EVA and ACC, all other stats are tricky to get around and I don't think they should be touched. Try yourself to raise your status on healers and you'll see how bad it is. 6 - Agreed. 7 - NO, PLEASE NO! Man, what went through your mind when suggesting this? Why are people allowed to stack +DMG Dealt indefinitely and not -DMG Taken? If party X is having trouble killing party Y, then it's party X job to look for countermeasures. Are you in a GvG? you can bomb entire party Y. It's a TW issue? Is your team set up to stack debuffs and buffs, or are you just running 8 Arch-Elementalists in hope of huge AoEs? Current PVP is lacking players, and the only teams that are actually trying something are having issues gearing up and holding back some of the old players. Is it their fault? Yes, they should gear up faster and better before hopping in PVP. But again, if a group of new players has no countermeasure to lower the DMG in order to actually play PVP, even on subpar results, having to stack 5+ healers just to survive, not being able to properly cap or fight back (due to low DMG / Not enough CC classes)? They would just leave the game entirely because 2 Arch-Elementalists wiped them out. Point 7 is a free ticket to server doom. If it ever reaches live setup, i'm quite sure it would be catastrophical for the server. Thanks for your response, and I appreciate your opinion/honesty on Point 7. I can see now that the way I formatted the paragraph and presented the idea makes it seem like I am listing a bunch of damage reduction changes that I want to see implemented. The idea is essentially to find a way around the "noodle fight" problem when you have around 10 geared players vs 10 geared players, and we don't need what I listed in order to do that, I was just stating these are the changes I had considered and I have not found a way to implement the solution. Instead of it being like X party having trouble killing Y, its more like both X party and Y party have trouble killing each other. The players that do get killed die pretty much as a result of RNG burst damage (sadness, doubles, triples). I would rather have my party get wiped because of misplay than having 10 minute+ drawn out fights. This is one of the main things that sap the fun out of the game for me personally, but I wouldn't want to see players getting one-shot everywhere for changes made to accommodate parties fighting at the highest level. Thanks again for providing your input, feel free to share if you have any alternative solutions to the problem presented in Point 7 or any general ideas of your own that you would like to see implemented. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted May 26, 2023 Report Share Posted May 26, 2023 20 hours ago, Losque said: Thanks for your response, and I appreciate your opinion/honesty on Point 7. [...] Most of my ideas towards PVE and PVP in general are considered too abrupt and would require weeks of hard work for the VGN team, only to be seen as "bad design" by some players who are reluctant to changes. VGN Staff would also answer that their energies should be spent somewhere else. As you, i'm an enthusiast of clarity and predictability, so i'd say: - Change double-hit certs and achievements into +DMG Dealt bonuses; - Change Magnus into +DMG Dealt flat status gem, no proc involved. Forbid the stacking of multiple Magnus; - Clarity on Healing formula: We don't have access to P-Healing or G-Healing numbers, and we can't for sure say how WIS/G-Heal interact. This should be a right, not a guess. We should be able to see it in character status screen; - Healing Formula tweaks: Since we're not entirely sure on how healing works, here is an idea of how an ideal formula would work: WIS is converted into both P-Healing and G-Healing in a 1-5 ratio (such as INT and STR are converted into M-ATK and P-ATK). A 5000 WIS healer would have +25.000 G-Healing and P-Healing. If you add more G-Healing from gears, class expertise and other sources, let's say you have a total of 50.000 G-Healing. That's a 150k Heal (x3.0 from Mcrit DMG) with the guaranteed number on party members, plus 25k P-Healing making it a 175k self-heal; - Heal Overhaul: The reason why we have such problems with healers is the Heal Spam. All modern games have healers dealing with cooldowns and skill management. From my viewpoint, healers should have an entire revamp as a class itself. I'd be glad to send you a couple of suggestions on Discord, but adding them here would just infuriate healer mains as I know they just enjoy sitting and spamming heals; By removing the randomness of PVP (i'd say procs should be removed too, but people would probably hang me instead of thinking through...), we could look at the "issue" with more precision, therefore allowing for a more perfect class tailoring. We could cut edges from classes that excel at too much, and add bulk to classes that didn't reach a decent performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Locsta Posted June 13, 2023 Report Share Posted June 13, 2023 Regarding the proposed changes for PvP, I agree wholeheartedly with several points. First, smoke bombs are currently ruining the PvP experience. The automatic resurrection of players when someone dies, especially in Territory Wars with a large number of participants, makes it nearly impossible for opposing guilds to gain an advantage. I believe smoke bombs should either be disabled or reworked, such as introducing a cooldown but guaranteeing 100% invisibility. I also share the same view as Losque regarding items that decrease size, as they provide an unfair advantage by making it harder to be targeted. Everyone can use it but not everyone do appreciate it. As for the other points, I don't have a specific opinion on them. However, I fully support the idea of adjusting buffs like (Movement Speed, Cast Speed, Attack Speed, and Critical Damage(POD). These buffs have a significant impact on gameplay, whereas other buffs have less relevance since most of our stats come from gear and weapons. Indeed, increasing the difficulty of achieving high Accuracy can be a good idea. This would encourage players to consider alternative builds focused on evasion. However, it's important not to make it too challenging, as there should still be a reasonable chance for players to hit their targets. Striking a balance is crucial to maintaining a fair and enjoyable PvP experience. Regarding the issue of excessive tankiness, I don't have a strong opinion either. However, I do acknowledge that the Holy Sage class can be excessively tanky compared to others. Overall, I believe these proposed changes would greatly benefit the PvP community. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexs Posted June 14, 2023 Report Share Posted June 14, 2023 1) I dont think this will be a big help for pvp, but also i dont think this will harm pvp. 2) Removing smoke isnt an option at this point, adju has "adju escape" with 2min cd and humans have "strategic retreat" with 1.5min cd, and pts use x2 adj and x1 hs so the frecuency of revs in pvp wont change after remove smoke bomb, this only gonna make halfkins not being able to play blue classes bc human having x2 ways to leave combat is so much better. Im agree that is kinda annoying trying to target players that are very small xD, i dont think ALL players use it precisely for that reason, most of them use it just to look "cool" and others bc before when players used trophies that removes positive buffs, it usually priorized removing those pots that change size instead of other buffs that benefit in pvp. 3) Agree that those trophs are very annoying , i think antor is the priority, pike maybe too. 4) Agree with this, maybe SOLO players or assassin will suffer a bit without this but i think this will help the pvp in pt vs pt. 5) Agree that we have too much stats and nerfing pod would help, but increasing stats value isnt necesary then. 6) Against this, i think its fine that sleep is canceled after attacking, but in sleeps that are 100% like ilu/time manip, simply bc u can control the sleep, instead enchant sleep is 1%, u cant control when it activates, and usually players just spam attacks and the enchant activates randomly, if we made the enchant sleep cancel after attacking then it would become useless bc u cancel it instantly since u dont know when it will activate and u are just spamming skills trying to break ur keyboard. 7) u trippin bro I agree that many points mentioned are very annoying in pvp, but that I agree dont mean that they need to be nerfed, we cant complain about everything simply bc I dont like it or it dont favor my playstyle, we must look for options before, for example in case of items that reduce the size making players difficult to target, making it small to avoid focus on it is a valid strategy, I don't see players complaining "hey this AE use dimensional jump back to get out of focus, nerf that", trying to "nerf" their strategy simply bc it works for them and we don't like it is ..., I'm probably the only player who doesn't use a mouse in their playstyle which makes it a little more difficult for me to target a specific player , but I have adapted and mastered doing it with the tab quickly, and YES there are times when it is not possible and I have to use the mouse and I know how complicated it is to target someone small, much more for me since I don't usually use a mouse , but I'm looking for options, you can change the default hotkey of the members of pt f1-10 and put your caller/asura/reaver or whatever in the letter R and when you have to follow calls just press R and T, which facilitates a little taking targets. Finally, I think that the "changes/nerf" suggested by players which affect the pvp should be consulted with both guilds that play pvp before being made (as in the case of choosing sides in tw the 2 active guilds in the pvp are consulted ) the same thing happens with these changes suggested by players, easily preventing revives by nerfing smokes can affect a guild with most of their healers being halkin while favoring a guild with most of their healer being human, or also favor your 200% mv speed style where you just hit and run since players who don't have 200% mv speed use smoke for escapes, removing stun/mundane certs will affect the guild more with players who mostly use assassin for cap , or in general trying to remove the cc (antor/pike/stun-mundane certs) will affect more the guild that has a more cc based playstyle and maybe they don't want all the cc to be nerfed as it has been year after year, not everyone wants a classic server pvp style with awak class, so I think both guilds active in pvp should be consulted before applying any changes proposed by players, it would be the fairest thing to do 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reikan Posted June 15, 2023 Report Share Posted June 15, 2023 20 hours ago, Lexs said: Finally, I think that the "changes/nerf" suggested by players which affect the pvp should be consulted with both guilds that play pvp before being made (as in the case of choosing sides in tw the 2 active guilds in the pvp are consulted ) the same thing happens with these changes suggested by players, easily preventing revives by nerfing smokes can affect a guild with most of their healers being halkin while favoring a guild with most of their healer being human, or also favor your 200% mv speed style where you just hit and run since players who don't have 200% mv speed use smoke for escapes, removing stun/mundane certs will affect the guild more with players who mostly use assassin for cap , or in general trying to remove the cc (antor/pike/stun-mundane certs) will affect more the guild that has a more cc based playstyle and maybe they don't want all the cc to be nerfed as it has been year after year, not everyone wants a classic server pvp style with awak class, so I think both guilds active in pvp should be consulted before applying any changes proposed by players, it would be the fairest thing to do If we were to consult only two guilds in order to know if they "accept" the changes or not, we'd be still stuck at old content since Eden players are most entitled to playing what they know and not adapting themselves. Human healers have the option to leave combat on a long cooldown, guilds that feel it's such a big advantage can adapt and build humans, or insert AoE invisible classes (such as Holy Sage that already has that) in their teams. Smoke bomb hurts weaker players A LOT, since they struggle too much more to create a small advantage on PVPs and when they manage to actually play better and find a breach, it's COMPLETELY negated by 3 healers spamming smoke bombs and pressing "revive" until it works. Getting rid of it and Engineer potion will only bring more dynamic gamestyles where people are ACTUALLY punished for having bad decisions/strategies rather than "well I messed up, let's just spam smoke bombs and fix that". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Losque Posted June 15, 2023 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2023 On 6/14/2023 at 10:26 AM, Lexs said: 1) I dont think this will be a big help for pvp, but also i dont think this will harm pvp. 2) Removing smoke isnt an option at this point, adju has "adju escape" with 2min cd and humans have "strategic retreat" with 1.5min cd, and pts use x2 adj and x1 hs so the frecuency of revs in pvp wont change after remove smoke bomb, this only gonna make halfkins not being able to play blue classes bc human having x2 ways to leave combat is so much better. Im agree that is kinda annoying trying to target players that are very small xD, i dont think ALL players use it precisely for that reason, most of them use it just to look "cool" and others bc before when players used trophies that removes positive buffs, it usually priorized removing those pots that change size instead of other buffs that benefit in pvp. 3) Agree that those trophs are very annoying , i think antor is the priority, pike maybe too. 4) Agree with this, maybe SOLO players or assassin will suffer a bit without this but i think this will help the pvp in pt vs pt. 5) Agree that we have too much stats and nerfing pod would help, but increasing stats value isnt necesary then. 6) Against this, i think its fine that sleep is canceled after attacking, but in sleeps that are 100% like ilu/time manip, simply bc u can control the sleep, instead enchant sleep is 1%, u cant control when it activates, and usually players just spam attacks and the enchant activates randomly, if we made the enchant sleep cancel after attacking then it would become useless bc u cancel it instantly since u dont know when it will activate and u are just spamming skills trying to break ur keyboard. 7) u trippin bro I agree that many points mentioned are very annoying in pvp, but that I agree dont mean that they need to be nerfed, we cant complain about everything simply bc I dont like it or it dont favor my playstyle, we must look for options before, for example in case of items that reduce the size making players difficult to target, making it small to avoid focus on it is a valid strategy, I don't see players complaining "hey this AE use dimensional jump back to get out of focus, nerf that", trying to "nerf" their strategy simply bc it works for them and we don't like it is ..., I'm probably the only player who doesn't use a mouse in their playstyle which makes it a little more difficult for me to target a specific player , but I have adapted and mastered doing it with the tab quickly, and YES there are times when it is not possible and I have to use the mouse and I know how complicated it is to target someone small, much more for me since I don't usually use a mouse , but I'm looking for options, you can change the default hotkey of the members of pt f1-10 and put your caller/asura/reaver or whatever in the letter R and when you have to follow calls just press R and T, which facilitates a little taking targets. Finally, I think that the "changes/nerf" suggested by players which affect the pvp should be consulted with both guilds that play pvp before being made (as in the case of choosing sides in tw the 2 active guilds in the pvp are consulted ) the same thing happens with these changes suggested by players, easily preventing revives by nerfing smokes can affect a guild with most of their healers being halkin while favoring a guild with most of their healer being human, or also favor your 200% mv speed style where you just hit and run since players who don't have 200% mv speed use smoke for escapes, removing stun/mundane certs will affect the guild more with players who mostly use assassin for cap , or in general trying to remove the cc (antor/pike/stun-mundane certs) will affect more the guild that has a more cc based playstyle and maybe they don't want all the cc to be nerfed as it has been year after year, not everyone wants a classic server pvp style with awak class, so I think both guilds active in pvp should be consulted before applying any changes proposed by players, it would be the fairest thing to do Thank you for your feedback! To address your concerns, the entire purpose of this post is to consult the community on their overall perspective of these proposed changes/suggestions. I thought I had made that clear, but in case I didn't there you go. If you're worried about the active guilds not seeing these suggestions you can go ahead and link whoever you have in mind as this is a public post. I'm not sure if I used poor wording earlier to communicate this, but I am not stating or implying that anything NEEDS to be changed. The above suggestions are my opinions on what can be changed to make the game more fun to play. I had no problem playing the game in the current meta for the past year or so and was able to work with what we had in order to get by. We ended up winning 7 GvGs straight before I decided to take a break from playing in February due to it just simply not being fun anymore. I don't say this to boast, but to engage with the argument presented in your anecdote of learning to play without a mouse (which I personally think is very respectable). It's not about a lack of effort for me, just about whether the game is fun or not. In any case, your criticisms to the actual suggestions are mostly fair and I thank you again for your engagement. I'm probably going to edit Point #7 a bit because it seems the idea I'm trying to present isn't very well represented by the words I chose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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